Your Essential Checklist For Round 1 MBA Applications
Maria |
July 30, 2024

In this episode of Business Casual, hosts John Byrne and Maria Wich Vila, along with guest Matt Symonds, are guiding MBA applicants through crucial pre-deadline strategies. They cover the essentials of application forms, strategic planning, and managing recommenders to avoid common pitfalls as major deadlines approach for schools like Harvard, Wharton, and Duke. The discussion offers a wealth of practical advice for prospective students to enhance their applications, ensuring every element—from essays to data forms—reflects their best selves. 

This episode is a must-listen for anyone navigating the competitive MBA admissions process, packed with expert tips for a successful application submission.

Episode Transcript

[00:00:04.360] – John

Well, hello, everyone. This is John Byrne with Poets and Quants. Welcome to our weekly podcast, Business Casual. We have a special guest today, standing in for Caroline, it’s Matt Simons, an old pal and friend who does our Center Court Conferences with me. And in fact, we have one coming up next week, our Executive MBA Center Court. If you are in the market for an EMBA, as we call them, you want to tune in, that’s going to happen next week. You can come to the site and register for that conference. Of course, we have Maria Wich Vila here who is the founder of Applicant Lab. Just so you know, Matt, of course, is the co founder of Fortuna Admissions, where Caroline also works. We are really little more than a month away from some of the big deadlines in round one for MBA applicants. We are going to see them topple like dominoes starting on September 4th, when Harvard, Wharton, and Duke have deadlines. September 5th is a deadline for UVA, Virginia, and Notre Dame. On the 6th, you have NYU Stern, London Business School. On the 9th, you have Michigan, Then Georgetown on the 10th.

 

[00:01:33.340] – John

Here’s a big one, Stanford, Yale, and INSEAD. On the 11th, it’s Kellogg, and so it goes. What we want to do with those deadlines looming is talk a little bit about what you should be doing. What’s the checklist of things you need to check off to put your best foot forward in round one? We’re going to go to Maria first because she’s been chomping at the bit to answer that question.

 

[00:02:01.110] – Maria

Can you see me? You can’t see me on the podcast, but I assure you that the chomping and champing and all kinds of things are happening. Yeah, absolutely. My very first tip is going to be one of the most boring ones. My first tip is, at this point, if you haven’t already, really go through the application forms in detail. The reason I say this is that when you first log into the application, it’s very tempting. It’s human nature just to skim it and to say, Oh, yeah, it’s my name and my address. Okay, yeah, I’ll do this the day before. It’s no big deal. However, these MBA application forms can be very tricky. There are many of them that have a ton of tiny little text boxes throughout. For example, you might suddenly encounter a box that says something like, What’s the biggest challenge you overcame at this job? Or, Describe your greatest accomplishments. Or, Summarize your responsibilities. If you’re not prepared to have answers for that, and not only Are the questions phrased slightly differently from school to school? The questions themselves are slightly different from school to school. But even things like the character count cut off.

 

[00:03:07.640] – Maria

So one school might give you 100 characters, another school might give you 250 characters. Things like this where if you get a little overconfident because you say, Well, yeah. I took a quick skim at the form, and it seems like a pretty no big deal. You can really find yourself stuck on the day of the deadline with a lot of questions and a lot of last minute panic. Another thing that occurred to me, for example, is the salary number. So some schools will say, Well, what’s your annualized salary? Let’s say you had a summer internship, if we were to take what you made per month in that internship and annualize it, what would your salary be versus what did you make over the course of the summer? There’s so many little minutiae. It’s the opposite of the common app for undergraduate admissions. Really do not discredit how much work you might have to put into that. I also find that working on the forms could be a good palate cleanser mentally. If you’ve really been stressing out over an essay draft and you’ve just been going in circles on it, take a little break, jump into the form.

 

[00:04:01.230] – Maria

It’s still productive. It’s a productive use of your time, but it is a bit of a mental break.

 

[00:04:05.150] – John

Yeah, all good advice. Matt, what would you add to that?

 

[00:04:08.730] – Matt

Well, I guess in the current context, Olympic committees remind us every four years of how much you can do in the last five weeks. Also, perhaps that we’re focusing on the finish line and not the start line of 100 or 400 meter dash. Maria is absolutely right. Those application forms are a gold mine of information. Everything has a role in these applications. I would say, as we’re, what, 40, 45 days away from those deadlines, you will have a shortlist of schools, and you might be tempted to say, well, if Stanford isn’t until nearly a week later than the Harvard or the Duke Fuqua applications, I’ll get to that later. Look holistically at your target list of schools because they’re prompting you, they’re urging you for the level of self-reflection that will really then catch the eye of the admissions committee. So make a plan, but make a plan and stick to the plan. Even as you think about what does work look like in the next four or five weeks, what are those other personal commitments? You’ve got those Taylor Swift concert tickets and you’ve been waiting for weeks. Well, that’s going to take up a couple of days to get to wherever she’s playing next.

 

[00:05:22.170] – Matt

Some of you might still have the shadow of the standardized test, the GMAT or the GRE. And so there are all of these pieces of a puzzle, which we’re going to dive into during the recording. But making that plan, there is still time for meaningful outreach. Harvard Business School does not need you to turn these applications into a popularity contest. You do not need to talk to 37 Wharton MBAs before you apply. But perhaps a conversation with a second-year student who is the President of the EdTech Club or the Health Care Club, or one of the fund clubs that they have that would be meaningful for your business school experience, there’s still plenty of time. I know that we’re going to jump into recommenders, keeping them on track, but those big details, and as Maria said, not ignoring any of those smaller details that begin with the application form.

 

[00:06:15.000] – John

It’s true. I mean, there are a lot of moving parts when you apply to a highly selected business school. Matt, you mentioned one of them, which can often lead to some troubles later down the road, cultivating your recommenders and them through what they need to do to help you put your best foot forward. Maria, what’s your basic advice right now for nurturing that recommendation or two that many business goals require?

 

[00:06:46.490] – Maria

Well, I advise, and I think many in our field advise that, for example, at this point in the game, your recommender should already know that they are your recommenders, and they should hopefully already be working on their recommendations. One thing that a lot of us advise is, don’t just say to your recommender, Hey, I’m applying to business school. Are you on my side? Cool. I’ll send you the link to the recommendation form. It’s really a good idea to have, by this point in the game, already sat down with them, provided them with a list of, Okay, here’s some of the questions you might be asked about me. Obviously, you can say whatever you’d like. However, just to remind you, if you’re asked about how I Excel versus my peers, just a reminder, a year ago, remember that time that I did that really great thing and I to convince the client to do whatever, that can be more under your control. You can’t control exactly what they say, but you can try to guide them by reminding them of not only what your greatest hits have been, but which aspect or which elements of those hits have happened.

 

[00:07:43.780] – Maria

For example, this is particularly for people who have very technical jobs, your recommender might want to focus on, wow, that algorithm that that person coded was flawless and the code had 0.0% error rate. That’s not the thing that an MBA admissions committee cares about so much. They’re going to care more about That’s what your interpersonal leadership skills. Hopefully, you’ve already sat down with them at this point and started to guide them through that process. At this point now, with about a month left to go, now is the time to very politely check in, see how things are going Are you working? Have you submitted it yet? Just like how Matt brought up, thinking about your own life and work and outside of work commitments over the next month, think about your recommender’s outside of work commitments as well. Your recommender might be taking the month of August off if They’re in Europe. They have a civilized vacation schedule over there. If your recommender is going to go scuba diving in Fiji on September third, and your deadline is September fourth, and they’re not ready in time, that could set your application back. Some schools will not allow late recommendations.

 

[00:08:50.590] – Maria

Some schools are a little more lenient about it. But so really do think about, is my recommender going to be ready? I actually sometimes tell people, maybe tell your recommender that the deadline is a couple of days sooner than it is, or at least say, Okay, it says that the deadline is September fifth, but I would really love for you to have this in by August 27th. Because I’ve had stories of, Oh, my recommender is on his honeymoon, and, Oops, he’s literally in Fiji. So do be keeping on top of them. Because, like I like to say, you can always force yourself to pull an all-nighter the night before an application if you have to, but you cannot force your to pull an all-nighter on your behalf. So respond accordingly.

 

[00:09:34.800] – John

So true. If you haven’t already nudged your recommender, you should be nudging him or her now. What’s a gentlest way to nudge a recommender at this point, Matt?

 

[00:09:47.880] – Matt

Well, everything that Maria described is where we would like to be in the process. But of course, some people have been procrastinating or still that anxiety of they know that their boss or their direct supervisor is the right person to ask, but they fear how they might respond. This is probably your last chance to think deeply about, have I chosen the right people? Supportive, enthusiastic. And the nudging then becomes a lot easier when those things are on board. But if you’re waking up at 2:30 in the morning saying, We haven’t really had a good conversation about this, there is, I think, at this point, one final check. Do you have the right people in mind? What Maria was describing, with them, provide them with some key talking points that they will then be able to illustrate at the color, the depth that goes so much beyond the bullet points on your resume. They might have teams of 30, 40, 50 people, and that project from 12 months ago that is so clear in your mind. So there’s a dialog. Of course, you’ve been incredibly courteous and thoughtful when you first approach them, getting them on board for that enthusiasm and support.

 

[00:10:56.210] – Matt

But I think checking in with them, as Maria said, we’re not harassing not focusing anybody on this, but just making sure that they’ve got a timetable, that they’re aware of it. Other commitments have been pushed aside. Fiji sounds great at this time of year, but make sure that you’ve given them a summary of achievements and embedded in that the outcomes and the role that you played. There’s a team, no doubt, in many of all of those. But what was your role? What was your impact? And really helping them to focus on those different criteria.

 

[00:11:26.420] – John

Now, Matt, what about the simple thing of having someone else look over your shoulder and read your essays and even your overall application? Isn’t that like a no-brainer?

 

[00:11:39.000] – Matt

You’d think. We all make up these decisions with a little bit of guidance. I think there are different forms and levels of guidance that are people that are very close to us. You mentioned Fouqua that has one of the first round one deadlines and this wonderful question that they ask about 25 random things. Now, you could probably come up with a flurry of ideas, but I think in sharing with a partner, someone very close to you, their ability to, Hey, is it just through modesty? I can’t believe that you mentioned this, or I’ve always loved this about you. There’s playfulness in the application, too. There’s a level of vulnerability, and sometimes those individuals can help to bring that out. I think there’s also the idea of candidates that get lost in, What does Stanford want to hear? What am I supposed to say to Columbia? And someone that step back from this whole process can hold up a mirror and really help you to think about your personal story, the true authenticity of you and how your voice is captured. Very often we see candidates in the latter stages, particularly those that are working at McKinsey, Bain, BCG, some of the big banks, they’re surrounded by MBAs.

 

[00:12:50.240] – Matt

It’s tempting, of course, to get their input, and they feel that they should make some contribution. And suddenly you’re at this stage in the final moments of the final weeks of applying to business school, and you’re doing an application by committee, which can be perilous. When everybody says, Well, I feel that you should emphasize this area of leadership, or, How about talking about innovation over here? I want to hear about your analytical mindset, and it can paralyze you. So keep the list short of expert advice or very personal advice. I think there’s a powerful combination that you can achieve with both of them, but definitely help someone. The Perhaps there’s even someone close to you that will help you with the minutiae, just making sure that spelling and grammar… And sorry, why does this say NYU? I thought you were applying to Columbia. Again, lost in the woods with all of this, and they can just pick your head up and really help you both for that honesty, that authenticity, but also some of those details.

 

[00:13:53.300] – John

And Matt, that is actually a mistake that admission officials often say is one of the big pet pews in the business. The cut and paster who tells Columbia that they really want to go to NYU Stern and vice versa. That actually happens a lot more often than people think, which is why it’s important to have another set of eyes or two on your application. Now, how do you know you’re putting your best foot forward when you do your application? What level of comfort should you be feeling before you actually push the Submit button? If you’re not ready by round one, what do you sacrifice by holding back, polishing a little bit more, thinking about this a little more deeply, and applying in round two? Maria?

 

[00:14:42.960] – Maria

Well, the devil’s really in the details with the answer to that question in terms of how do I decide if I push to round two or not. I think you are ready to submit when you… First of all, ideally, if you’re not an ultra super procrastinator, If you take a day or two off from all of the admissions, all of the applications, do something fun, go to that Taylor Swift concert, and then come back with a fresh set of eyes, print out the PDF, for example, of the application form, and look at it carefully and ask not only for errors and accuracy, but also ask yourself, Okay, what’s the overall holistic picture that this application is giving of me? Because first of all, because of all of these little text boxes plus the essays together, we tend to work on them separately. Now that I’m looking at all of them together is the overall picture of who I am as a candidate coming across, is my authentic voice coming across, as Matt referred to. I think that there is often an understandable but erroneous assumption that my essay, if I am applying to an institution of higher learning, I must have a bunch of multisyllabic words to impress them.

 

[00:15:49.380] – Maria

But in fact, all that does is just make it hard to read and risks making you seem a little unlikable. Ask yourself, does this sound like me? I do think that there’s a little too much. For some candidates, they feel that the polished part of it is more important than it actually is. If you’re stressing out about… If you’re saying to yourself, Wow, I actually don’t know why I want to go to this school, that’s one thing. But if you’re saying, Oh, I’m not sure if I should have a semicolon here or a dash or a semicolon or semicolon or a dash, at that point, just hit submit. It’s going to be fine. The admissions officer say it’s a holistic process. It’s a holistic process. We all We are very frustrated and we roll our eyes at it, but it really is a holistic process. As a result of that, it’s the substance in your application that’s going to make the difference more than if you misuse a semicolon. At a certain point, think to yourself, it’s about the quality of this and the substance, and don’t worry about, quote, unquote, polishing it so much that then you miss the deadline because all else being equal, earlier is always better.

 

[00:16:55.590] – John

I wonder what you think about Harvard. In Particularly because the deadlines for the application went up three weeks later than they normally do. Then it took another three plus weeks to actually get their new essay questions. Then we discovered after all that and those delays, which almost amount to two months, we discovered that if you submit a GMAT from the new Focus Edition, you will actually have to take an additional writing assessment test. I wonder How many people that’s going to convince to hold back and apply in round 2? And round 1 apps at the Harvard Business School this year may be down because of the delays and the requirement to do an additional test. Matt, what do you think?

 

[00:17:48.930] – Matt

Well, I think whether it’s the admissions office in Boston or Philadelphia or Palo Alto, typically from one year to the next, they’ll sit down as the start of the admissions cycle begins and remind themselves that from one year to the next, they would look to admit 49, 50% of the class in round one, aware that the applicants in round two are just as talented, they’re just as dedicated, they’re just as qualified, and to not fill all of the places. They break it down even into buckets. The buckets are the consultants and the bankers and the private equity and the Olympians and others. So they’re looking across the entire year. I think that this year is a a little unusual. If we go back eight years when Trump was running for the White House, there was a certain naiveté among the business schools that they quickly woke up to a reality, stem designation now for everybody. And they might be thinking there are outcomes in November that could very well affect the application volumes in round two. If Trump gets back in, we saw the impact that it had on international applications in the four-year period that he was in the White House.

 

[00:18:59.350] – Matt

So that might be in the back of their minds. But nevertheless, I think for the candidate themselves, this idea of being the best you, and if that means that there’s some project that really comes to fruition in Q4. Late October and something launches that really brings together eight months, twelve months of work, well, think long and hard about how powerful it would be to share that application. It could be an extra 20 points that you’re looking for on a standardized test. To apply in round one, simply to meet that deadline and think that you’re in the first group, I think can really deserve a lot of candidates. So as we’ve said, part of this review is also a very honest review. You said, How do you know when you’re ready? When have you really put together an application that captures the real you? I would ask yourselves, Have I enjoyed this? Was it like dragging or pulling and going to the dentists? Or did I really step back this rare opportunity that you have when you apply to business school to think about who you are, think about what you want? Some of the schools ask that explicitly.

 

[00:20:13.550] – Matt

That’s a gift to be able to step back and have that introspection. So did you enjoy it? If you did, the chances are it will be reflected in the great materials that you’ve put together.

 

[00:20:25.810] – John

Yes, absolutely. Maria, any last bits of advice?

 

[00:20:30.540] – Maria

I think don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good. So definitely apply with your strongest foot forward, but don’t be so obsessed with it having to. It has to be perfect. My score has to be perfect. My essay has to be perfect. Everything has to be perfect. And if it doesn’t, I’m just going to spiral and be paralyzed with anxiety. Just get it in there. I understand it. It’s human nature, but at a certain point, if you’re ready to hit submit, don’t say, Well, I don’t know if I’m right. Just go ahead and do it. Unless, as Matt said, you know in your tummy, if you retake that GMAT, you’re going to get a higher score, or you know that there’s this amazing project that if you just wait a month, you’ll be able to fill your essays with this amazing project. Great. But otherwise, don’t let the enemy be the perfect of the good and just… Maybe on a far more pragmatic level, maybe try to apply to a few more schools than you originally meant to, if not in round one, then in round two, just because this is such a competitive process.

 

[00:21:25.850] – Maria

There’s so much uncertainty. Even in a normal There’s uncertainty now. There’s the election, as Matt pointed out. There’s so much uncertainty all the time. Just maybe also think about if you’re one of the few people who’s actually ahead of the game and you’re like, Oh, actually, I submitted everything. I have a little extra time. Maybe apply to a couple of extra schools just to spread out your risk.

 

[00:21:46.570] – John

Don’t wait to the last minute. Five minutes before the actual deadline for Harvard at noon Eastern Standard Time on September fourth, you don’t want to push the button five minutes for. When should you, in fact, push the button?

 

[00:22:04.490] – Matt

Matt? I’ve been in this industry so long, I can remember when UPS and FedEx would make out like bandids. It was that next day or four-hour delivery to get it to do your content. No, you’re Absolutely right. Anyone that’s running five minutes before a 5:00 PM East Coast deadline, there’s a reason, perhaps, why they’re in that much of a state. So submitting early, that doesn’t mean to say that it should be weeks and weeks ahead of time. But again, I think you reach a point where everything that you’ve pulled together and intrinsically, Maria makes the great point about the pursuit of the perfect, which can really undo you. I think admissions officers are in this to admit people. They end up rejecting some of the top schools many more than they would admit, but they actually feel quite sad about that. They give everybody the time, and they’re curious people. So make them curious. There are word limits, and people try to fight with them and say, I want to squeeze in one more thing, and can I just add this? And maybe they end up repeating themselves in different parts of the application. Have the self-confidence that less can be more.

 

[00:23:11.830] – Matt

Make them curious to want to meet you because that’s the next step that follows all of this submitting an application is to then secure an interview. There might be some really engaging part of your story that would be fantastic for the interview. Save it. Don’t try to shoe-warn it into paragraph nine and overfeed this. Make them really just want to meet you in the next stage of interview.

 

[00:23:35.460] – John

Well, there you have it. There’s our checklist. Check off each of these boxes, and you will, in fact, put your best foot forward. I want to thank Matt and Maria, of course, for their great advice. I want to remind everyone that on July 30th, we have a full day of center-court panels for a would-be executive MBA candidate We’re going to be talking to alumni of some of the best executive MBA programs in the world who will talk about how the degree can help advance your career. I think you’re going to find a lot of great information. In fact, even if you’re not in the market for an executive MBA, I think a lot of the advice and a lot of the stories that will be told during the center-court event will be applicable for full-time MBAs as well. So thanks again for listening. This is John Byrne with Poets and Quants.

 

Business School News | General | P&Q Podcast "Business Casual"
Your Essential Checklist For Round 1 MBA Applications
Maria |
July 30, 2024

Full Episode Transcript:

John Byrne: [00:00:00] Hello everyone. This is John Byrne with Poets and Quants. Welcome to Business Casual, our weekly podcast. We want to talk about international students. Schools are now reporting that a good number of their international recruits who were admitted to programs this fall haven’t been able to show up or have changed their mind.

At the University of Illinois, the school, the Gies College of Businesses, lost about 200 international students in its Master of Finance and Master of Business Analytics programs causing a $7 million hit. To their budget at UC Davis Graduate School of Management, 40 students didn’t show up who were admitted, and that’s resulting in two and a half to $3 million hit on their budget this year.

Both of these things have occurred before the announcement of a hundred thousand dollars tax on H one B Visa. Which will make it more difficult for many employers [00:01:00] to hire international students and keep them in the US for an extended period of time. And we’re getting the new class reports of the, of the new cohorts of students who’ve arrived on campus in the fall of this year.

And Carnegie Mellon is. Down 30% for their international cohort over the past two years. UCLA Anderson School is down 25% over the past two years, and schools are preparing for the worst because of the H one B Visa decision which could affect future employment. Caroline and Maria, my cohosts are in the market helping people get into the best schools in the world.

And Caroline, what do you think?

Caroline Diarte-Edwards: Yeah, definitely seeing concern among international candidates and people holding off on applying for the US schools. So it’s really a shame. I think the international schools, particularly the schools like Inea and London Business School and the other top.[00:02:00]

International European programs will benefit, they’ll get talent that might otherwise have come to the us, which is great for those schools. And I’m very fond of those schools, but it is sad as from the US perspective for sure. On the other hand, you could also take the perspective that.

If you do have options for your career post MBA that don’t require that you absolutely have to stay in the US as an international candidate, then now could be a very good time to apply, right? Because definitely application volume will be down and schools will be perhaps. More open to candidates that might otherwise have been waitlisted or rejected in the past.

For some candidates, this is actually a fantastic opportunity to get into a top school, but from, for, at least from the school’s perspective, it is a shame because, I’ve experienced firsthand the value of a very internationally diverse classroom and the value that brings with a [00:03:00] diversity of perspectives that enriches the learning experience so much for everybody.

Enriches the debate and bring so much to the academic experience as well as the the network and the social experience. So it’s everybody’s loss, right?

John Byrne: Very true.

Caroline Diarte-Edwards: And I think it’s a very myopic perspective that the US government takes that. There needs to be a more of a refocus at US educational institutions on the domestic market because those international applicants bring a lot to the domestic students in enriching their learning and enriching their network.

Of course bring a huge value to the US economy when they stay. So there are very impressive statistics on the value of immigrants to the US economy. So Indian immigrants, for example, are only about one and a half percent of the US population, but they have founded to date about 8% of all the tech startups in the us.[00:04:00]

And for sure some of that top talent from India will now not come to the us. They will go to perhaps they will stay at the great schools that we’ve talked about in India, or they will go to other international schools. So for sure it will be a loss to the us learning experience and to the US economy.

John Byrne: Maria, you run applicant lab which is a platform that helps applicants get into highly selective schools. And many of the people who use your product are international students. What are you seeing?

Maria Wich-Vila: Everything Caroline is saying concern is think a delicate way to put it.

And I think it’s because as the more affordable provider in the market, I tend to get the applicants who maybe they don’t have the family business to fall back on. Maybe they don’t have, large sources of income elsewhere in their lives. And so I think the concern is very real and very merited, right?

I can’t. In good faith, tell someone, if they [00:05:00] really start, sit down and do the math and start to do, run the numbers, if they just assume that things are going to stay as is. And this is the big caveat that I’m, I want to get to in a second, but if we assume that things stay as is and if someone really is from a lower income tier from Nepal or India or some of the other countries that I work with, yeah, maybe sit down and do that math and think about, okay, if I do have to come back to Nepal afterwards, how will I pay back that loan? There, there is though some good news. Even if we assume that things stay status quo, which I hope, and I’m pretty, I’m I think it’s, I’m cautiously optimistic that they won’t.

But there are other markets as well. So I’ve had a lot of candidates, or former clients, I should say, graduate from business school, not be able to get jobs in certain in countries and then. Being able to move to Dubai. Dubai for some reason, has started attracting a ton of candidates, primarily from South Asia but from other parts of the world who might be having trouble getting some of those work permits.

You could do worse than live in, Dubai’s not perfect, but [00:06:00] you could also do worse than live in Dubai, right? The salaries are pretty high. The standard of living, if you have a white collar job there is, it’s not the worst outcome. So it’s not I can’t stay in the us. That’s it.

There’s no other it’s not a binary of, it’s either the US or it’s nothing. And then I think the second point is I, we’ve just seen. So many things, let’s take something from a different facet of policy. The tariffs, right? The tariffs were announced and the markets went crazy, and in the months that have followed, oh, actually, here’s the tariff, but this one company, their products aren’t gonna be subject to the tariff.

And then there’s this other company that maybe they’re not gonna have to pay the same tariff. And I can’t help but wonder if some of these. Some of these very large companies that are getting tariff exemptions, their ability to lobby for. The H one B, maybe lowering of the H one B fee. If they’ve been able to successfully lobby tariffs, they might be success, able to successfully lobby against these, true, these [00:07:00] visa fees.

And a lot of these big companies, these big tech companies are in fact some of the largest employers of post MBA talent in the us. So I am cautiously optimistic that. This could be, hopefully right now it’s the big, the flash and storm and the, the making, the big splash, right?

Everything’s about showmanship and making the big splash. And maybe in the aftermath of the storm, that initial PR media storm, maybe the reality will start to calm down a little bit. Yeah, the other good news is that if you’re applying now, that means you would enroll in 2026. You would, if it, if you’re talking about the US two year program, you would graduate in 2028.

At that point, who knows what might happen. I like to think that what we have seen so far in terms of the Visa policies, hopefully. Roughly the floor about as bad as it can get. I think if they start implementing a similar thing to OPT, that could be the same thing. But if we just assume that okay, right now what’s been announced is that these foreign students all have to do, you can’t stay here, you have to [00:08:00] go someplace else.

It, we assume that’s like the initial negotiating position. It’s just gonna chip, it’s just gonna get, it’s got nowhere else to go. It’s even worse. So we’ve, we now have two and a half years roughly until. People applying now would have to really implement, or be really affected by this in a.

In a pragmatic and tangible way. And so that’s why I’m hoping that the little chipping away and the chipping away things will start to get a little bit better and a little bit better and a little bit better like we’ve seen with other facets of policy. Didn’t like a bunch of the CDC employees that were all fired under Doge didn’t more than half of them I think were recently rehired.

Yes. Back again true. Whatever you think of the policy, it seems like some of the policies are. Being slowly walked back. And so I think if you. If you’ve got an adventurous spirit, I, and by the way, if you apply now, sorry. I know I keep going, but I like, if you apply now, let’s say you get accepted, you don’t have to show up until August of 2026.

So that will give you [00:09:00] time, like definitely. Apply now and see what happens between now and August of 2026 to make the decision to not apply now, because you’re rightfully scared. I’m not blaming anyone, but to not apply now, maybe by maybe six months from now he’ll be like, ha, just kidding. I’m doubling the number of H one Bs.

Yeah, we have no idea what’s gonna happen. So things are So give yourself that optionality.

John Byrne: Yeah. And things are so uncertain that could very well happen because, one day at tariffs are on one country the next day they’re not one day they’re pausing the ab the interviews for student visas, the.

Say they’re not there’s litigation all over the place, challenging many of the presidential actions that have been taken that have put them in limbo despite all the headlines. So it’s, it, there’s more uncertainty than there is certainty about any of these things. And as you point out, you, if you [00:10:00] did apply this year, the odds are gonna be in your favor if you’re an international student, frankly, because there is no question.

That international applicant volume will be down at all the top schools in the us, which means that to maintain some semblance of a global class. Admission directors are going to have to dig a little bit deeper into their international applicant pools to select candidates. In a way, if you play the long term and in the BA, in, in many graduate degrees or long term bet, I think you’re gonna be.

Oddly better off. And it may even be that the schools will really even go out of their way to help international students in ways that they haven’t in the past because of these actions in Washington. And what do I mean by that? Just a more welcoming reception than the already welcoming reception you would get hiring immigration lawyers and people that can help you.

If in fact there is a [00:11:00] challenge of one kind or another. I think the takeaway is not to be discouraged and throw up your hands to say, ah, I always dreamed of coming to the United States and getting an MBA or a graduate degree in business. Use this as an opportunity to actually increase your odds of getting into a better school with the understanding that when you get out there, probably most likely be an administration change and a change in these policies if they even get completely adopted as Maria points out.

Wouldn’t you think that’s the best strategy, Caroline?

Caroline Diarte-Edwards: Yes, I agree. I think that it’s good to take a longer term perspective because it is such a long timeline, right? If you’re applying to a top two year program as you say, you’re gonna be coming out of the program at the end of the Trump presidency and things may look very different.

And Maria rightly points out that. Everything is very volatile, right? So one thing gets announced and the next week it [00:12:00] gets rolled back, right? They’ve done so many things where they’ve realized, oh, actually that was a really bad idea after all. So

They’ve changed things. So things may not it might, may not turn out to be as bad as we fear.

And then I would also encourage candidates. To apply to the US schools, but why not hedge your bets and apply to an international program as well? Agreed in a time of uncertainty. As Maria said, create options for yourself. And so I would encourage candidates to apply to the top US programs, but also apply to top international programs as well and see what offers you get.

And then you can make a decision. As Maria said, it will be closer to the time when you would be starting the program and there may be more clarity about the situation in the US and what your options are in international markets as well. So I think that given the current circumstances, a good strategy is to hedge your bets and apply more widely than you might [00:13:00] have otherwise done.

John Byrne: Plan Bs are good. Let me just say business schools in the US have for years advised international students that those should have a plan B in the event that they can’t get with a US company. The other thing to, to keep in mind incidentally, in terms of MBA employment is that most of the companies.

That basically employ the lion’s share of MBAs are all global concerns. So you can be hired here and if there’s any challenge in getting you employed here in the us you can simply start in an office outside the United States with a hope of coming back when things clear up. So that is also another important thing to keep in mind.

And I’ll just say this. Despite whatever messaging you’re reading in your local newspapers or on your streaming platforms or television stations about how immigrants may not be welcome in the us that’s not true at all. Universities are diverse places. Welcoming. [00:14:00] Embracing loving the diversity of their students and particularly those from different cultures and backgrounds that enrich the educational experience.

There is no Dean that I’ve ever encountered who said they want fewer international students. It’s the exact opposite. They’re putting out message after message, telling people that they’re still welcome and wanted. Needed in the classroom. Now, Maria, in the past we’ve seen applicants who try to say, okay, can I time my application and my enrollment in a program to what I think might be the next recession?

And we know that in recessions applications go way. In part because some people lose the opportunity to gain advancement in a recession. Some people get unemployed. Some people just realize, hey, a recession is a good time to take a time out and get a new educational credential, which may allow me to do things I otherwise can’t do.[00:15:00]

But it’s almost impossible to time a recession and I’m imagining it’s impossible to time what’s going on here now.

Maria Wich-Vila: Yeah. I mean if we could all time, when everyone’s been talking about a stock market crash that to, not to bring another disparate topic in, but like everyone’s been talking about, it’s a bubble.

It’s a bubble. I’ve been hearing ’cause a bubble for a year and a half. True. Yeah, you can’t time or ask, for example, ask the people who enrolled in business school, like who got into business school in 2020. Like there’s always gonna be these external shocks. We can try to predict a recession, but who knows if it’s going to happen?

Who knows if there’s going to be some sort of virus or the opposite of a virus. Maybe there’ll be a virus that helps us all live healthily forever. Who knows? There’s so much uncertainty out there that who knows what to do. So I think. I think yeah, have that optionality. I think go ahead and apply.

Now if there is a recession though, which everyone seems to think is coming at some point, at that point, it’s going to be harder to get accepted. And as Caroline has pointed out, so rightfully, if other international, high quality international students are [00:16:00] spooked by the current H one B talk, now is your chance.

International candidate. Jump in there, shoot your shot like you might be able to get into a school, assuming of course that you’re qualified, but. You might have a lot less competition now than you normally will, so this could be a golden opportunity for you. And one final as one thing that I wanted to point out was that I was thinking, okay, Maria, let’s say that, you just said that maybe there’s gonna be walk back of some of these and there’s gonna be, maybe he’s gonna change.

But even if there isn’t a change, right? Let’s think about this. The companies themselves are gonna have, and you started to alluded to this John, when you mentioned that a lot of them are global concerns. They’re gonna have now a two year window in which to say. Okay. We know that we’re not gonna keep these people in the states, so let’s open a huge office in Vancouver.

Let’s open a brand, an enormous new office in Toronto. Whatever that is. Because I was thinking back to over the summer when it looked like maybe a bunch of international students wouldn’t be able to get any student visa at all. And I know that some of the business schools we’re looking [00:17:00] at, do we rent out some space in Toronto and do Zoom classes?

We do a hybrid. What we did during COVID. I’ve heard that. I think Rice, I was actually having dinner last night with a dear friend who was, say he’s from Texas and he was saying that Rice has some sort of a campus in Paris and that they are leaning really heavily on their global campuses around the world to still be able to service these students who had gotten accepted.

So things like that, like if. Even if our sort of my very cautious and perhaps irrational optimism turns out to not be true, let’s say the things get, the OPT is banished and all, everyone is banished and it’s the worst case scenario. Again, there’s gonna be two and a half years for these companies. To quickly find, okay, fine, we’re gonna open up an office in Mexico City and we’re gonna pay people really well and we’re gonna what?

Whatever that is. ’cause they’re, the companies are still gonna want the talent, right? Just because the political administration doesn’t want the global talent in the country. That doesn’t mean that the country’s employers don’t want that talent. They [00:18:00] want that talent, they want that intellect, they want that energy and that drive to make their companies better and to make more money.

So they have a very strong incentive to not only be lobbying for these. Visa changes to go away, but if they don’t go away, they have a very strong incentive to come up with some way to provide, to provide those incomes and to provide those perks and some sort of a compromise type of situation.

So again I think if you’re applying now, if you’re going in with eyes wide open, shoot your shot. That’s my, I would absolutely tell people to to try that.

John Byrne: Yeah, I totally agree. And, generally this is my rule of thumb and Maria and Caroline, you may or may not agree with this, at the top MBA programs, they’re so selective that the people who apply to them generally are very self-selecting group.

So I always say that roughly 80% of the school’s applicant pool. Is qualified to actually get accepted, get in, do [00:19:00] well, and land a good job. And yet we know that at Stanford, the acceptance rate is 6%, that Harvard is 12 Wharton and Columbia is, a little under 20 or so. So there are a lot of really good candidates who aren’t getting in.

Which leads me to this, if you’re an international student who thinks okay, so these US schools just might dip a little more into the domestic pool to make up for the offset of international candidates. As it turns out, there is a little notice. Clause in the big beautiful tax bill that was passed here under Trump that places severe limits on federal loans for graduate students.

Now, the current grad plus loan program allows students to borrow up to the cost of their graduate programs. That comes to an end in July of next year. After that, grad students borrowing will literally be capped at [00:20:00] 20,500 bucks a year with a lifetime graduate school loan limit of a hundred thousand. That’s a big deal because, at the top MBA programs it’s not on typical.

For a student to borrow over a hundred thousand dollars easily. And so these caps are also going to affect domestic enrollment. So again, that, that contributes to your ability as an international candidate to get in both. The likely decline in competition not only from internationals but also from domestic students here, interestingly enough, that Bill, which passed has different limits for a professional graduate degree, but the bill basically says that only med school and law school qualify as professional degrees and not business school.

That’s another wacky thing that’s happened that will affect. Domestic enrollment as well. So I, I side with Maria and [00:21:00] Caroline to me the advice is, look long term. Don’t be affected overly affected by the change in policies in the US or the climate here. Understand that if you apply now and you matriculate next year and you graduate in two years after that you’re gonna be facing probably a very different environment.

Also understand the odds are in your in your favor, in getting into a highly selective, really good program in this coming year. And know that, while people too often calculate the value of an MBA based on short term variables, like what’s my starting salary gonna be? What is my sign-on bonus?

The truth is the MBA has enduring value over your lifetime. So it rewards you over your entire career and not just for the first or second years. And you can’t go wrong by graduating into a network of helpful and supportive people from a great school and [00:22:00] receiving a great education. So I think bottom line, we’re telling you apply.

Don’t get convinced by your colleagues or anyone else that this is a bad time to come to the us. Opportunity. Some of the best opportunity come comes when people perceive there to be significant challenges. And I think this is really true with business school. We hope we convinced you to come and try and hedge your batts too, as Caroline noted.

I think that’s really super important to have a plan B when you apply and toss a bunch of apps to the European schools which have excellent superb world class MBA programs and real international cohorts. 90% of the students not from the countries where the schools reside. Toss a bunch of them in your mix for your target schools to give you these different options at the end of the day.

This is John Byrne with Poets and Quants. Thanks for listening.

Maria

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