MBA Trends: A Look Back At The Past Ten Years
Maria |
October 12, 2022

As we commemorate the ten-year milestone of Caroline’s Fortuna Admissions, let’s take a look back at the trends from the previous ten years. In this episode, we are going to look back at what it’s been like for MBAs and the industry for the past decade. Let’s answer some of the questions you probably haven’t thought of;

  1. Have you ever wondered what it was like to apply to business schools ten years ago?
  2. Were classroom discussions significantly different given that diversity and gender parity are much apparent?
  3. What significant changes have occurred with regard to career goals?
  4. What progress has been made in the last ten years toward reducing prejudices, biases, and stereotypes?

And why do Maria and Caroline, two of our hosts who had been working as consultants for years, concur that the video essay has significantly altered the admissions process?

Episode Transcript

[00:00:07.140] – John

Well, hello, everyone. This is John Byrne with Poets and Quants. Welcome to Business Casual, our weekly podcast with my co host Caroline Diarte Edwards and Maria Wich Villa. I want to acknowledge something that is always a big landmark for a company. It is Fortuna’s ten year anniversary. Ten years ago, Caroline created Fortuna with Matt Simons, who was our partner in our center court venture, as well as Judith Silverman Odera, who had been the former acting admissions director at Wharton and built quite a formidable firm in those past ten years. They recently were joined by Pete Johnson from Berkeley, who ran the MBA program, which is a big deal. So congratulations, Caroline.

[00:00:59.460] – Caroline

Thank you so much, John. Yeah, I can’t believe it’s been ten years. It’s really flown past.

[00:01:04.990] – John

So I’m going to use your anniversary as an opportunity to talk about what’s happened in the last ten years in the MBA market. Obviously, we’ve been through a period of a lot of turbulent change, a lot of recessionary ups and downs, the Pandemic, changes in personnel at different schools, part of which we mentioned last week, the ups and downs of rankings, the greater mix of international applicants, particularly since the Trump administration has gone bye bye in America. If you were to reflect on what it was like ten years ago when you started Fortuna and what it’s like today, what would you say?

[00:01:45.110] – Caroline

There’s definitely some changes in how schools are approaching admissions, and one of the things that has emerged over the past few years that has become more common is the use of video questions and then, of course, zoom interviews right. Which took off massively with the Pandemic when everything turned online overnight. So schools have been leveraging virtual technologies much more in the admissions process. And I think that’s great because it gives more people access, right. If you have virtual interviews, then it really gives people access all over the world from any location. They don’t feel the pressure to travel to far flung campus to have an equal chance. And then I think the video questions give candidates another means to communicate with the school. So not everyone is great at putting their story down on paper. And it’s useful for the schools to be able to see how people communicate using different media right. And also to get a glimpse of how the candidate communicates, get a sense of their personality, which you could sometimes get on video in a different way than you can get on paper. So I think that’s been an interesting and valuable evolution.

[00:03:13.540] – Caroline

And then over the past years, we’ve also seen greater emphasis on equity and access and increasing the diversity of programs. So, of course, a big thing of the past years has been the increase in women and the representation of women in MBA programs, with some schools reaching parity, and hopefully that trend will continue. And then it redoubled efforts by the schools to increase the representation of different groups, and especially underrepresented minorities on programs. So I think all of that has been very much to the benefit of the programs. Right. I think having an interesting mix of people and a diverse mix of people in the classroom is hugely valuable to everybody who is there and increases the richness of the learning experience for all of the students. So that’s been a very positive evolution, I think.

[00:04:17.790] – John

Maria, what’s your take on the trends in past ten years?

[00:04:21.090] – Maria

Yeah, as we were getting ready to record, I started making my own little list and the first word I wrote down was video. So I agree with Caroline that I think the addition of video has really made a huge difference and I think it will continue to grow and it’s important. I think the good news about video is. Caroline said. Is that it gives candidates a chance or an opportunity to shine versus before they may not have been able to when they were simply two dimensional friends on paper. As I think Mary Derek Bolton used to refer to them two dimensional people on paper. And now they become more actual people when you see them on a video. I also think that it helps certain candidates, not helps them, but it makes certain candidates not look as good, which is actually a good thing, I think, from an admissions perspective, in terms of helping admissions offices with their efficiency, I do think that in the past, a lot of people would look perfect on paper. They would look wonderful and witty and warm and fluent in English on paper, and then you would do an interview with them and they were none of those things.

[00:05:23.660] – Maria

I think the video is a great chance to bring, I think, authenticity into the process. Right. And I think it helps prevent some people I mean, it’s bad news for them, but these are people who probably would not have gotten in beyond the standard interview anyway. And so being able to do that preliminary, get a sort of a preliminary glimpse of them through the video portion of the application saves a lot of people a lot of time, and I think it does allow some diamonds in the rough to get through who may not have otherwise been able to. Another big change I’ve seen over the past ten years has been in career goals. Traditionally, banking consulting, consulting, banking, banking consulting. Those were the two big things. And everything else out there was sort of ancillary and I think the rise of tech as a viable career path, tech as a well paying career path. And then alongside that, more and more and more and more emphasis on entrepreneurship. Right. I think entrepreneurship was something that all business schools used to touch upon, but the idea was usually like, okay, this is something you might eventually do 30 years from now.

[00:06:24.340] – Maria

And now I think schools are acknowledging that maybe people might want to jump into that path a little bit sooner, maybe not immediately after school, because they’ve got those student loans to pay back after all, but they’re certainly tailoring their programs more and more to at least develop an entrepreneurial mindset in students. And I think the message is that of, look, you might not be ready to do this in two years, but maybe in five years or ten years as opposed to 40 years from now. So I think that’s great. Another change that I’ve seen, and this might be a little bit controversial, and I would love to get Caroline’s take on this, although she is the queen of diplomacy. So I also respect I also completely respect if Caroline wants to I like that.

[00:07:02.820] – John

The queen of diplomacy.

[00:07:04.960] – Maria

Oh, my gosh, she is.

[00:07:08.960] – Caroline

That’s what my mother in law would say about me.

[00:07:14.060] – Maria

I will not provide a comment on this setting, but we can talk about this before we stop recording. I think that there has definitely been a generational shift. I think, you know, those of us who either employ younger people or work with younger people, you know, ten years ago, it was all about the millennials, and now we’re talking more and more about Gen Z. And I think the good news is that I do think that more and more students are having a genuine interest in social good being some part of their future, even. Maybe they don’t go into the nonprofit field, per se, but I think I’m definitely seeing a more genuine interest in pursuing a career that is not going to necessarily destroy the planet, et cetera. And so I think that that is a very positive thing. I do think, though, the difference in parenting style, my husband and I talk about this because he has young people who work for him, and so we are sometimes comparing notes. And I think the millennials, if I understand correctly, the management articles of wringing our hands about them was that they had a bunch of helicopter parents.

[00:08:21.970] – Maria

And I think for Gen Z, the term has been changed to bulldozer parents. So it’s literally people whose parents it wasn’t just like, I’m going to hover over you like a helicopter parent and make sure that you’re doing your homework and make sure that you’re getting your stuff in on time. But the bulldozer parents are literally like, I will like, what’s that? You have an obstacle. I am going to get it out of your way. So I have actually had I started having parents. I mean, it’s a little bit it’s not great, guys. I’ve had parents reach out to me and be like, I’m considering buying Albigant Lap for my child. Do you think it’s good for them? And I’m like, Your child is 28 years old. I didn’t even tell my parents I was applying to business school. They had no idea until I got in. And so I’m seeing that that’s just one example. But that is sort of filtering its way through where I am seeing this younger generation is perhaps more used to having adult figures in their lives, sort of save them, like, okay, here is exactly what you need to do, and here is there’s less of an independent streak, I have found.

[00:09:25.910] – Maria

And I do wonder if that’s sort of a generational bit less. Obviously, this is not everyone. Not all genders, of course, but a little bit less on average inability to sort of make logical inferences or more of like, I want everything spelled out exactly for me, and if it’s not, I’m going to be frustrated or lost.

[00:09:50.590] – John

Is that more of an American phenomena or is it global?

[00:09:56.510] – Maria

I don’t know about I mean, I definitely think it is more American, but it’s certainly not I have not only seen that in American clients, I also think because the war on talent sort of simultaneously there has been such a big war for not war on talent. Sorry, I mean, the war for talent has meant that more and more employers over the past couple of years have been more willing to put up with things like, oh, I need to take a day off because I rescued a baby duckling on the side of the road and I need to go you think I’m joking? My husband had someone in his company once a couple years ago, say, guys, I found an orphaned duckling on the side of the road and I’m taking tomorrow off because I need to go take it to a duck sanctuary in San Diego. And my husband’s like, you can do that on a weekend. Like, that is what weekends are for. But this was a younger employee and they’re like, no, this is really important for me, and just because you’re my.

[00:10:47.860] – John

Employer put that duck in your bathtub.

[00:10:49.930] – Maria

Yeah, put in a bathtub, give it a couple of worms, pick up some worms from the yard, it will be fine. I mean, the poor duck, right? But it’s this sort of thing where, like, employers I think ten years ago my husband would have been like, no, you are coming to work the thing we pay you to do. And now employers are. So everyone has to sort of tiptoe around these demands, which is good in some ways, right? I think it’s making employers in general more less we own you 24/7, which I think is good for all people. But it’s definitely been I think it’s a cultural shift that is resonating throughout the corporate world and therefore also throughout the MBA admissions world. And I would love to talk to people who are currently working at MBA programs to see if it is also rippling its way through the student experience once they are on campus.

[00:11:42.190] – John

I think the other thing we’ve seen in the last ten years, there’s a reduction in what you might call friction in the application process. And by that I mean, too many essays. So most many schools have reduced the number of essays that they require of their applicants in the past ten years. And many more schools are either test optional or are more generous in waiving standardized tests than had been ten years ago. Some of this is a reflection of the pandemic. Many of these changes are brought in at that time, along with probably the acceleration of video interviewing because people couldn’t travel or see people in person during the interview phase of the application process. But don’t you sense that schools have tried to make it a little bit easier for people to apply to their MBA programs?

[00:12:36.340] – Caroline

Caroline yes, that’s definitely been a conscious effort by the schools to be able to reach out to more people. And as you said, partly it was the pandemic that they had to be much more flexible in a way that they hadn’t considered being before. And to a certain extent that has continued because they saw the benefits of giving increased access and breaking down some of the barriers. So, yeah, I would agree that there has been overall reduction in the length of the applications, although it has gone back and forth a little bit with some schools taking out essays and then adding in some mini essays, which is sort of hidden in the application form. And I think that the reduction in the length of the application can be a double edged sword because sometimes I think it gives candidates less scope to tell their story in all its dimensions. And whilst it may look less intimidating when you start working on it, sometimes it’s more challenging because you have to leave so much out if you have a short application, and trying to figure out how to manage that filtering process and what to focus on can be difficult.

[00:13:57.580] – Caroline

So I’m not sure that having a shorter application always makes it easier.

[00:14:02.440] – John

Yeah, that’s true. Absolutely. The other thing here is the increased numbers of women in MBA programs. There are a number of programs that are now at gender parity. That was definitely not true ten years ago, and I wonder how it’s changed the classroom discussion. Maria, do you think it’s actually changed the discussion that goes on in classrooms to have more women in those courses than there had been before?

[00:14:30.710] – Maria

It may, but I would hesitate to say to go so far as to say that a female student would contribute something different in sort of the academic discourse. Right. I think if a woman comes from the private equity field and goes to business school, I would assume that she would be giving very similar contributions to the classroom discussion. As a male who worked in private equity. I do think, though, that I think the benefit of having more women in the classroom is the same as having underrepresented minorities, which is when you are in situations with people like a classroom and you get to see their thought process, and you get to see their intelligence. If you go into that process as someone who perhaps was like, oh, women can’t be in business, or this is what Hispanics are like, someone with a name like Maria Vila boy, I have a bunch of assumptions about what she’s like based on that. Seriously. But if you’re in a classroom with them and they have that visibility to your thought process and to your work ethic and all of those things, I do think that it helps mitigate perhaps prejudices and stereotypes and biases, because now you’ve got data of seeing people who may fall into one of these categories, and you’ve got data seeing them actually excel.

[00:15:43.660] – Maria

So I think that that’s the ultimate benefit of having women. I don’t know if, like, a woman would necessarily I mean, sure, of course there may be a little bit like, oh, I need more flexi. I think I might need more flexibility in my future career, and let’s talk about that. There may be some issues like that, but I don’t think that, like, a female McKinsey consultant would have a substantially different you know, if we’re doing a case on, say, Home Depot and what should Home Depot do as a corporation to deal with whatever, I don’t know that a female student would have a completely different outlook than a male. Obviously, we’re talking about, like, a case on a cosmetics company. There may be perhaps more gender comments may start to fall more among traditional stereotypical gender lines.

[00:16:24.110] – John

But I’m thinking about ten years ago at Harvard Business School, I believe the women’s group did a study, and they showed that a disproportionate share of men won top honors at the school foreign access of the percentage of men in the class, and that women tended not to win those awards. And it led to some thinking about why that was so when, after all, women went in, usually with much better grades and much better academic performance during their undergraduate years. And the conclusion was that, number one, professors were not calling upon women as often as they called on men because most of them were male. Secondly, they found out something that was really interesting, that women tended to want to give a fully formed, thoughtful answer, and men would just showed up their hands seeking air time and trying to score points no matter what kicked out of their mouth. Right?

[00:17:28.690] – Maria

Yeah, they would. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I’m glad that you brought this up, John, because I think because of the Harvard Business School grading system, because virtually most of your grade depends upon your contributions in the classroom, it’s a different academic experience, and it’s a different grading experience. We’re not talking about, like, okay, let’s give you a worksheet, and can you build a financial model and excel that does these five things? In that case, I do think there would be more gender parity ingredients but if it’s a matter of discussions, then yeah, I do think that women were more hesitant to raise their hands. I think professors were less just. It wasn’t on purpose. I just think it was simply a well intentioned yet unaware situation. But I think the benefits I think things have changed a lot because I think Harvard. As a result of that. In response to that. They did introduce this idea of many classes. If not all of them. Started having almost like a ta. Like a teacher’s assistant of a certain type that would actually take notes on not only who is saying what in class. But they would actually take notes on like.

[00:18:29.980] – Maria

Okay. How many women did the professor call on this time? And then afterwards, my understanding is that they would say, look man, there were five women who had their hands raised and you only called on one today, so you need to do better. So I do think that there were literally people holding the professors physically sitting in the classrooms, holding the professors accountable. And I would say one of the things that’s interesting is this idea of traditional follow traditional gender definitions or gender stereotypes. Yeah. Traditionally a woman might say like, wow, I’m not going to raise my hand until I know for a fact that what I have to say is good and smart. But one of the benefits of the Case Method. I think. And maybe I’m just rationalizing the school that I love is you see these boys raising their hands and saying complete garbage that they have not thought about and you see people reacting well to that and you see people falling for it and you start to realize. Wait a minute. If they can do it. Then I can do it too. And one of the reasons I think the Case Method is so effective, and this is just me speaking of myself as an individual, is that when you go out into corporate America, you start to realize, wait a minute, I don’t know exactly what my opinion is.

[00:19:37.720] – Maria

I don’t have a fully formed opinion, but I’m going to raise my hand in this meeting anyway. I’m going to give my opinion because I have seen, I spent two years watching guys do this and I know for a fact that they didn’t know what they were talking about. I know for a fact that the guy did not read the case last night. And so you start to realize the power of communicating with confidence. And I think that I would like to think that that helps women succeed a little bit more in what are traditionally maledominated fields.

[00:20:06.960] – John

Yeah. And I think just having more women in the classroom will give more women confidence to also fight for airtime and maybe get over the reservation that they always need to say something that’s really well thought out when there is an emphasis on very quick responses in a dynamic study discussion. And I think actually what Harvard did, among other things, was that during orientation it actually had sessions for women to tell them that, hey, put your hand up, participate. It’s important, don’t be counted by anyone in that classroom. You’re as good or better than they are, stand up and do your thing, which has been a really good message. I think the other thing that we’ve seen in the last ten years is the recruitment and the enrollment of more diverse classes. And I mean, even beyond underrepresented minorities, we’re seeing more applicants in the best schools from Africa in the Middle East. In terms of Africa, Oxford led the way, frankly, in creating an initiative to recruit more MBAs from Africa, which was a bet on that continent’s future and its importance in the overall economy and how it will develop over the next years.

[00:21:29.710] – John

And many schools have followed suit. And I think that’s a great development because Middle East and Africa are really super important regions of the world and they were vastly underrepresented in MBA programs. And if you think about the need for leadership and those economies in the future to progress and to get the kind of growth and development that would be well deserved in those parts of the world, an MBA education could be a good stepladder for that. And I’m thinking that because of all this. Caroline, I wonder in the beginning, ten years ago, where did you get most of your clients from and how has that changed over the past ten years? Are you seeing also a greater diversity of people who come to you for help and advice?

[00:22:16.110] – Caroline

Well, I think with Fortuna, about half of our clients are based in North America and then the rest all over the world. And I think that actually has been fairly consistent from the start. But that’s partly because we have a very strong representation of former admissions officers from in Seattle, London Business School on the team. So we’ve always naturally attracted a lot of international clients as well as candidates in the US were focused on the top US school. So we always had a very diverse mix. I love working, I find it fascinating working with people from all over the world who have such different backgrounds. It’s really enriching for me and I very much appreciate the opportunity that I have now to work with them over several months, whereas when I was at in Cedar, I might look at their file for ten minutes, right, and then on to the next one. So I really appreciate the opportunity to sort of build that relationship and get to know people in a much deeper way than I was able to before. And diversity of client base is wonderful. And I’m glad that the American schools are embracing this more now because that’s something that has been part of the DNA at Inchyad since the school was founded many, many years ago.

[00:23:42.970] – Caroline

And because the school recognized that bringing people together from different countries and cultures just adds so much to the learning experience for everybody. And that was part of the founding vision of the school. And it’s really not only stood the test of time, but other schools have sought to replicate it. So imitation is the greatest form of flattery, I guess. Yes, it is, definitely. I think it’s great that the schools are more open these days to international applicants. I would like to see that increase. I think talent is equally spread around the world, and we are not offering the same level of education necessarily to people from all parts of the global economy. And therefore, I think over time, business schools need to continue to look at expanding access to young professionals from around the world. As you say, it can have such a wonderful impact on developing their economies. And what is also wonderful, I think and I’ve seen this over the years working in business education, is that there are more and more candidates coming from emerging economies, are going back into those economies when they graduate. Whereas 20 years ago they might have come to study at Harvard or London Business School and then sought to stay in London or New York and might never have worked in their home countries again, whereas it’s much more common now for people to go back to their home countries.

[00:25:24.480] – Caroline

And so it’s wonderful that they are taking that world class education back home with them.

[00:25:29.970] – John

True. Maria, I wonder if you’ve noticed any changes in the selection process of business schools. Now, you mentioned the introduction, more video essays, but I wonder if you see schools looking more toward transcripts, work experience, undergraduate, college or employer. Is there anything you think is being emphasized more today than it was ten years ago?

[00:25:58.760] – Maria

I’m trying to think in terms of generalities. I’m not sure about the immediate thing that came to my mind upon hearing this question is there are a few schools that occur to me that I think have been aggressively trying to increase their standings in the rankings. And I think some schools have been there, for example, more aggressively courting high GMAT scores, or some schools have been more aggressively trying to court more and more and more applicants, because that way if they increase the denominator of the number of applicants and they accept the same number of people every year, their acceptance rate looks more elite by comparison. So I do think that some schools are this is a little bit cynical, but I do think that they are encouraging people to apply. You know, we talked a little bit earlier about how the application process in some ways is much easier. There’s a part of me that wonders. Part of that is like, yeah, sure, because we want to hear from more people, but also, hey, the more people apply, the better we look in terms of how elite we are.

[00:26:53.360] – John

True. Actually a good example of that, USC Marshall, they came out this week with their class profile, and they had a 16 point jump in their GMAT average. That’s amazing, right?

[00:27:11.010] – Maria

Well, because look at how easy it is, frankly, to apply to Marshall. You don’t need a single letter recommendation to apply to Marshall. So if I have a high GMAT, but the rest of my profile maybe isn’t that strong. Guess where I’m applying. I’m applying to Marshall. Right. Because I know that there’s not going to be no one’s going to call my boss and say, well, did Maria really do all talked about in her letter to us that the chances of that happening are not as high? And so I think that’s part of it. It’s actually funny. I was chatting with my husband the other night about these rankings, and I was like, yeah, USC is actually on par with are in fact even ahead of UCLA in some of these rankings. And we’ve been living in La now for 1520 years, and he’s like, how is that even possible? No sense to us. But how is it even UCLA? I think for people who live in Los Angeles, it is far and away the stronger school that attracts far and away stronger candidates. And it’s like, whoa, but good. I mean, look, it’s a game.

[00:28:07.840] – Maria

I’m sorry. USC is playing that game. Yeah.

[00:28:11.100] – John

And I should point out that that big increase has passed through isn’t the only one they’ve had. They’ve increased their average GMF by 25 points since the class of 2020. So that’s really remarkable.

[00:28:25.830] – Maria

They’re playing I mean, God bless them, there’s a game. And whether or not we definitely don’t agree with the game on this podcast, anyone who’s young, right? But the game is there, and some schools are playing that game. And whether they do it by maybe making the application process pretty easy, like literally the USC quote unquote essay, I think they call it a cover letter. Really? You could just recycle it’s essentially like a career vision. Why do you want to be a Trojan? Whatever. You could basically recycle any schools essay pretty easily for USC. You don’t have to do any extra work. Whatever. I’m being honest. You don’t have to do any extra work. You don’t even need a letter of recommendation. So if that’s the case, then, yeah, if I have a high GMAT, but maybe the rest of my profile isn’t, you know, I don’t get along with anyone I’ve ever worked with. Guess what? USC is a pay school for me to apply to. And I think they’re playing the game, and I think it’s interesting. Hopefully that will eventually the rising I love this I use this phrase too much. The rising tide will lift all boats, and hopefully eventually it will translate into a higher student quality.

[00:29:30.850] – Maria

I think Arizona has seen the fruits of that happen, right? Many years ago, I. Think Arizona made its program essentially free. And so guess what? Especially if I’m from a developing economy and I’m a genius and I’m super awesome, and I know that I can’t afford business school, guess where I’m going? And so then, as we become a positive cycle of more talented students, become more talented alumni, so hopefully this will pay off for USC in the long term. I just wish that I think there are people who could have gotten into USC five years ago with a lower GMAT score who might not get in now. And I think that’s a bit of a shame.

[00:30:06.870] – John

Yeah, that’s really true. Well, Caroline, congratulations on your ten year anniversary of Fortuna.

[00:30:13.440] – Maria

Thank you.

[00:30:14.100] – John

Maria has now had Applicant Lab for seven years, so your ten year anniversary is fast approaching, although Maria has been an MBA admissions consultant for much longer than that. So I want to thank both of you for all the service and to help you provide applicants over the years, I think has been really helpful to them. And I’m sure there are many out there who have graduated and gone on to other things, and I’m sure they think about you all the time. All right, this is John Byrne with Poets  and Quants you’ve been listening to Business Casual, our weekly podcast.

Business School News | General | P&Q Podcast "Business Casual"
MBA Trends: A Look Back At The Past Ten Years
Maria |
October 12, 2022

[00:00:00] John Byrne: Well hello everyone, this is John Byrne with Poets and Quants, welcome to Business Casual, our weekly podcast with my co-hosts Maria Wich-Vila and Caroline Diarte Edwards. Today we have a special guest, Heidi Hillis from Fortuna Admissions. She is based in Australia, is a senior expert coach for Fortuna, and has three degrees, all from Stanford, a BA in English literature, that’s my degree, an MA in Russian studies, and an MBA from the Graduate School of Business. And we have Heidi here to discuss some really fascinating research. Here’s what Fortuna did. They dug into the last Two class profiles of the Stanford Graduate School of Business.

That’s the class of ‘23 and the class of ‘24. They looked up all these folks on LinkedIn to identify a little bit more about their backgrounds, including their former employers and their places of undergraduate education to come up with an incredible analysis. Heidi, welcome.

[00:00:46] Heidi Hillis: Thank you. I’m glad to be here.

[00:00:48] John Byrne: Heidi, what is, what are the big takeaways from your deep dive discovery?

[00:00:54] Heidi Hillis: It’s hard to know even where to start. I think there’s a quite a few interesting kind of trends that we’ve seen that have taken place over the years. We were mentioning before the call that traditionally there hadn’t been, 10 years ago, if you’d looked, you wouldn’t have seen so many tech companies represented, but now there’s a big presence of tech companies who are feeding a lot of these MBA programs in Stanford in particular.

I think that the thing that was really interesting was, looking, not just at where the companies that were feeding the students, the applicants to Stanford. When they were working there, when they were applying, but actually the paths that they took prior to their current job.

So how many people were working, if you look at McKinsey, for example, or Bain and BCG, those are obviously companies that feed a lot of applicants to the program, but we found 20%, which seemed to be normal of, the class came from consulting, but if you actually look into the numbers in their background, You would see that actually 37 percent of these two classes had worked at McKinsey sometime prior, or actually in consulting, so it was, it’s The kind of the patterns that are behind, what you would normally see in terms of what Stanford tells us.

So you get a sense of the paths that people have taken. And so that’s something that was really interesting to see.

[00:02:16] John Byrne: Absolutely. And of course, this is this analysis goes so far beyond what any applicant would learn by simply looking at the class profile that the school up because, this level of detail is never available to people.

[00:02:33] Heidi Hillis: No, and yeah, for example, you could see that, Stanford will say that they have around, each year around 50 percent of applicants are international, which is a great statistic and gives you lots of hope if you are an international student. But when you dig into the numbers, you actually understand that.

75 percent of the people who get into Stanford actually went to a U. S. University. So even if you’re international, it does have does seem to have kind of an advantage of having been educated in the U. S. That seems to be something that they look for. However, I think. The concentration of universities in the U.

S. that are feeding to Stanford is something also that, if you’re looking at it, you might find a little bit dis, disconcerting. There’s a few programs that are really, obviously the top. Programs as you would expect places like Harvard, Stanford, Yale, the Ivies but if you look at the international universities very diverse from all over the world, really lots of people from different places, which is also really interesting.

[00:03:38] John Byrne: Yeah I tell you, one of the things that struck me in the data is how consistent it is. 10 years ago, we did the same exercise at Stanford and a bunch of other. Schools from Harvard and Dartmouth and Columbia and talk and a few others and back 10 years ago, we found that 25. 2 percent of the class of 2013 were from Ivy League colleges.

And the Ivy League 8 schools, not including Stanford. And if you included Stanford, it would have been 32. 6%. So now, let’s move forward to your data. And in 23, 30. 7 percent went to Ivy League schools, even above the 25. 2. And in 24, 27. 9 percent went to Ivy League schools. So it looks like Stanford has gotten even a little bit more elitist than it was.

Yeah,

[00:04:41] Heidi Hillis: It’s, it is it’s what the data says, right? Obviously, this is a sample. We have 80 percent of the two classes. So we don’t know where those other people went. And that might skew the data a little bit in another direction. But it is, if you look at there’s 15 schools, that include the Ivy’s and then you have UC Berkeley and obviously Stanford that really are contributing, 49 percent of the class of 23, 47. 3 percent of the class of 24. So that is a pretty heavy concentration and But, if you actually look into the data, you see a lot of people also, each of these is actually an individual story.

You see a lot of people who come from other schools as well. So it’s not like you have to give up hope if you come from a different school. I see a lot of individual stories that, from the whole range of U. S. schools that really are feeding into Stanford. So I think what the data doesn’t also tell you, unfortunately, is how many of these Of people from these backgrounds are actually applying.

So

[00:05:39] John Byrne: good point.

[00:05:40] Heidi Hillis: It’s it’s hard to know. And sometimes I think people this is. A path that a lot of people who go to these schools plan to take from the very beginning. So I would see, it would be interesting to know that I don’t know that we will ever find that out. But, um, that’s something to keep in mind as well.

[00:05:56] John Byrne: Yeah. And that’s a fair point. Because how reflective are these results of the applicant pool reflective of an elitist attitude probably a combination of if I had to guess, but, it is what it is, and these institutions obviously are great filters, so you come from McKinsey, Bain, BCG, and you go to Harvard or Stanford or Penn, and you pass through a fine filter, and it makes you less of a admissions risk than if you went to, frankly, the University of Kentucky and worked for a company that no one knows of.

That’s just the reality of elite MBA admissions, right?

[00:06:40] Heidi Hillis: Yeah. And so you will see that the people who are not going, you’ll see a lot of the people who you would, the profiles that you would expect, the Harvard undergrad that then goes to Goldman that then was working at a PE firm.

That’s a really typical profile that you’ll see. But you’ll also see some really, unique and interesting ones, which I think, Okay. Helps you understand that if you don’t have that path, you also have a real chance at these schools, and maybe even more of a chance, again, not knowing, how many of those Goldman P.

E. Harvard grads are applying. So I’m thinking of the guy that I saw who he went to UPenn undergrad, studied engineering, started out a kind of pretty typical path working in private equity, but then made a big pivot to work for go to Poland where he was working in a real estate investment firm and the head coach of the Polish lacrosse team.

So you have really interesting profiles like that, that you can see that. aren’t necessarily taking that typical path. And sometimes that really does help you stand out.

[00:07:42] John Byrne: True. Maria, what surprised you most about the data?

[00:07:48] Maria Wich-Vila: Wow. I think we already covered, the, one of the biggest ones was the number, the percentage of people who would had some sort of either their undergraduate or graduate education within the United States.

Intuitively, I had felt that was true. And sometimes when I try to, give some honest, tough love to applicants from certain countries, and they’ll say, oh, but Maria, I think you’re being a little too pessimistic. After all, X percent of the applicants at these schools are international, and Y percent are from a certain geography internationally.

I’ll say yes, but that doesn’t mean that they’re all Solely from that area. A lot of them are, do have significant international educational experiences. I think another, speaking of the international piece the percentage of people who had significant international work experience as well was something else that really jumped out at me.

Because it would signal to me that Stanford really does value this global perspective both within probably its domestic applicants and also its international applicants. So I thought that was also a really interesting piece of data that jumped out at me.

[00:08:52] John Byrne: Now remind me what percentage was that?

[00:08:56] Heidi Hillis: People who are international

[00:08:58] John Byrne: who have had international work experience.

[00:09:01] Heidi Hillis: I think it was 30%.

[00:09:02] Caroline Diarte Edwards: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it’s pretty

[00:09:04] John Byrne: impressive.

[00:09:04] Caroline Diarte Edwards: 30%, which I was thrilled to see. As well as coming from in Seattle and Europe. Obviously the international schools put a heavy emphasis on international experience and I hadn’t fully appreciated that. A school like Stanford would also.

really value that to the same extent. And it’s great to see that candidates are making the effort to get outside of the U. S. and get international experience because I think you gain so much from that exposure. And you bring more to the classroom if you’ve got that experience. I know that both Maria and Heidi.

I’ve worked outside of the home countries as well. Pre MBA and I think that you just have so much more to contribute to the whole experience. And it was great to see that 30%.

[00:09:50] John Byrne: What else struck you, Caroline?

[00:09:53] Caroline Diarte Edwards: We talked about the concentration of academic institutions, and I was also surprised about the concentration in employers.

So while there is a very long list of employers where the students have worked pre MBA when you dig into the career paths that they’ve taken there is some interesting concentration. Heidi had noted that the reports that There are 26 companies that account for nearly one third of the class in terms of where they were working right before Stanford.

But when you look at their whole career history, those same 26 companies represent over 60 percent of the class. So that is, yeah, that’s quite extraordinary that so many of the class have experience of working at quite a short list of companies.

[00:10:46] Heidi Hillis: I think that’s reflective of, if you really think about it, you have a lot of these companies.

You’re talking about the Goldmans and the Morgan Stanley and McKinsey that have really large programs that recruit out of undergrad that are really training grounds for. A lot of people that then on to do, work in industry or go on to work for in finance in particular, a lot of people starting out at some of these bulge bracket banks and then going into.

Private equity or smaller firms. So the diversity within finance in terms of where they were working prior to MBA is quite large compared to consulting because there just aren’t as many consulting firms, but a lot of people in financing, a lot of different firms, but they, a lot of them really do start out in these training programs, these analyst programs that are so big and popular.

[00:11:34] John Byrne: Yeah, true. And looking back, I did this exercise as well. The feeder companies to Stanford 10 years ago in the class of 2023, 22. 8 percent from McKinsey, Bain, BCG, and your data, 22. 5 percent work there. Incredible consistency over a 10 year period. When you look at the top six employers 10 years ago, they were McKinsey, BCG, Bain, Goldman, Morgan Stanley, and JP.

Morgan Chase. They accounted alone for 34 percent of all the students in the class of 20, 2013 at Stanford. In your data for 23 and 24 they account for 29. 8%, just a few percentage points less. So remarkable consistency. And I think you’re right, Heidi, this is a function of the fact that these firms bring in a lot of people who are analysts and actually expect them after 3 to 5 years to go to a top MBA school.

So there’s a good number of them in the applicant pool to choose from and let’s face it, they’re terrific candidates.

[00:12:46] Heidi Hillis: Yeah. I think another pool of really terrific candidates that you see, and I don’t know what the 2013 data was saying, but is the US military, which is really, I think, again, something that I felt having worked with lots of military candidates myself, understand that, Yeah, intuitively, I would have expected, but to see it in the data is actually really interesting.

You just see Stanford in particular, I think, is really looking for leadership potential, and it’s so hard to show that as an analyst, as a consultant, but as in the military, these people have such incredible leadership experience that it really helps them to stand out.

[00:13:23] John Byrne: Yeah. And let’s tell people what the data shows.

How many out of us military academies,

[00:13:28] Heidi Hillis: In all in total, we had, 20 over the two years. So that’s in the two classes that we found. So that’s, a pretty large number. And they come from all the different academies, right? So you’ll find them from different, not academies, in the army, navy and the marines.

So you’ll see that. And you also see quite a few, in the data we’ll, we see a lot from the Israeli military as well, but that’s actually a little bit difficult to because every Israeli does go into the military. So it’s they have that in their background. Any Israeli candidate would have Israeli military background as well, but again, that’s.

Place that people can really highlight their leadership. So you had eight people from who had been, who were Israeli and obviously had military experience where they were able to demonstrate significant impact and leadership prior to MBA.

[00:14:18] John Byrne: Yeah. In fact, 10 years ago, roughly 2%. of the class went to either West Point or the U.

S. Naval Academy. Good number of people actually from the military. Maria, any other observations?

[00:14:34] Maria Wich-Vila: Yeah, I was also surprised at the fact that within those top employers And when we look at the tech companies, it was Google and Facebook and Meta with a pretty large showing. Google was actually the fourth largest employer after the MBBs and, but then, I was expecting there to be an equal distribution amongst those famous large cap technology companies.

So I, I would have expected even representation amongst Google, Meta, Microsoft, Apple, Nvidia, Amazon, et cetera. And yet. Apple and Amazon only had one or two people each versus Google at 25. So I thought that was really fascinating and it makes me wonder if perhaps it’s a function of maybe Google and Meta might give their younger talent more opportunities to lead impactful projects, perhaps.

I’m just guessing here, but maybe Apple and Amazon perhaps are more hierarchical. And maybe don’t give their younger talent so many opportunities, but I was really surprised by that. I would have expected a much more even distribution amongst the those famous those famous tech companies.

[00:15:40] John Byrne: Yeah. You’re right. And I crunched the numbers on the percentages and Google took three and a half percent of the two classes and that’s better than Goldman, Morgan Stanley, JP Morgan Chase. Facebook had 2. 7 percent and Microsoft at 1. 5, and I was shocked at Amazon because, Amazon is widely known as the largest single recruiter of MBAs in the past five years.

At one point, they were recruiting a thousand MBAs a year, but in, in one sense, maybe Amazon quite doesn’t really have the prestige. For Stanford MBAs who might rather work elsewhere, I think that might be is, you look at the employment reports at a lot of the other schools and Amazon is number one at a number of schools and very low percentage of people from Amazon going to Stanford.

We don’t know, of course, how many. Leaving Stanford and going back to Amazon, but it can’t be that many.

[00:16:41] Heidi Hillis: I wonder if there’s something about just a proximity effect here. You have the plate, like the meta and Google just being so close to Stanford, maybe it just, attracts more people applying because they.

They’re almost on campus and maybe, just being Amazon all over the world and different places could be not attracting as many. I don’t know.

[00:17:03] John Byrne: Yeah, true. The other thing, the analysis shows, and this is what you also gather from the more public class profile is really the remarkable diversity of talent that a school like Stanford can attract year after year.

It is, it blows you away, really. The quality and the diversity of people despite the concentration of undergraduate degree holders or company employers, it’s it’s really mind boggling, isn’t it?

[00:17:33] Heidi Hillis: Yeah, they come from everywhere and really interesting paths and even the people I think that, have those kind of typical paths, you see a lot of diversity within them as well.

So I think, even if you’re coming from a Goldman or a McKinsey having lived in another country or gone to done a fellowship abroad or running a non profit on the side. These things are actually what helped them to stand out. But you do see some really interesting, I think, profiles, too, of people who’ve just done, you get a sense of what it would be like to be in the Stanford classroom.

People from really unique and different backgrounds. People who come from all different countries and lawyers, doctors people who have run, nonprofits in developing countries people running large programs for places like Heineken or Amazon too. But, it’s a real diversity of backgrounds.

[00:18:27] John Byrne: Now, Heidi, I wonder if one is an applicant. Is this discouraging to read and here’s why if I’m not from Harvard, Stanford, Penn, Columbia, Brown, Cornell, Dartmouth, and if I didn’t work for McKinsey, Bain, BCG, Goldman, Google am I at a disadvantage and should I even try? Some people look at the data and come away with that conclusion.

[00:18:52] Heidi Hillis: I think it’s a reality check for a lot of people. I think it’s just, it’s really, it just helps people understand, what it, the difficulty of this, why it’s so competitive, but I think that there is, again, behind the kind of the percentages, you do look at these individual profiles and I would get, I would actually take a lot of hope from it if I were looking, as an applicant, because especially if you are.

Maybe a little bit more of a big fish or small fish in a bigger pond or big fish in a smaller pond you go to Rice or you go to Purdue or, and you do really well, those are the people who, they’re definitely looking for that diversity of background as well as the international.

I think that’s really neat. think that, instead of looking at the data and saying, why not, why I shouldn’t even apply, it’s why not me look at these other profiles of people who have taken really unique paths that that do get in. So I think it is actually a Kind of a mix of both, it is a reality check for a lot of people, but it’s actually, there is so much diversity in the data as well.

I think also one thing that we haven’t really covered is about is just the prevalence of social impact in, that’s really taken hold of the class. I don’t, again, going back to your 2013 analysis, I’m not sure how easy it was to tell that, but a lot of you can see reflected in the both the types of organizations people are working for, but also their titles and the kinds of work that they’re doing that that there’s a huge 40 percent of the class of the two classes had some kind of social impact in their background.

Whether that’s, running their own nonprofit on the side or volunteering or. Running trans transformational kind of programs within companies that are, either in finance or consulting or in industry. That’s a big trend. I think that people can take heart from as well.

So if you’re working if you feel like you’re in an organization where you’re not getting the leadership that you. can use to highlight your potential for Stanford, that’s definitely a place you can go is working for in volunteer capacity for a non profit or on the board of a of some kind of foundation.

Those are the kinds of places that you can highlight your potential

[00:21:00] John Byrne: true. And I know we have a overrepresented part of every applicant pool at an elite business school are software engineers from India. And I wonder in your analysis, how many of them did you find from like the IITs?

[00:21:18] Heidi Hillis: That’s a good question. The IITs, it was again, it was one of these you have about 50 percent of classes internet, so 25 percent of the class. was educated outside of the US. The IITs are going to be up there. Let’s see from India, 2. 1 percent of the class came from India. So probably, I don’t know offhand exactly how many of those were IITs, but

[00:21:43] John Byrne: I’ve had a lot of them.

[00:21:45] Heidi Hillis: Yeah, probably a lot of them. Although I think, that’s the other thing is that people who come, to work with me from India, they feel like if they haven’t gone to IIT, then that’s going to be a disadvantage. But I think, you’ll find that there are, there’s representation of other universities as well.

Definitely.

[00:22:00] Caroline Diarte Edwards: Yeah, I was just looking at the list of undergrad institutions. And for example, you’ve got Osmania University from Hyderabad. So it is not, it’s not all IIT. Okay.

[00:22:12] John Byrne: Yeah, exactly. And Caroline, 1 of the things about the institutions that are really represented here and that I don’t really see unless I missed it.

I didn’t see a Cambridge or an Oxford. Two of the best five universities in the world. And I wonder if that’s just a function of fewer people in the applicant pool or what? What do you think that could be about?

[00:22:36] Caroline Diarte Edwards: I had a look through the uk Institutions and you have got cambridge in there.

I think I also noticed. Bristol university there are a few different universities. So i’m aston university, which is not it’s not on a par with Oxford or Cambridge. So I think that speaks to the point that Heidi made that you don’t have to have been to an elite school to get into Stanford.

Aston is a good solid university, nothing wrong with Aston, but it’s not it’s not one of the top UK universities. So there’s definitely some interesting variety in the educational backgrounds of the students going to Stanford. And

[00:23:16] John Byrne: then, yeah, it is if you’re a big fish in a small pond, like Afton, you’ll you could still stand out in the pool.

[00:23:26] Heidi Hillis: Absolutely. There’s a lot of really interesting background, you have look hard on blue and you have Miami University and some really smaller universities abroad. I think. Again, it’s really, if you look at that, it does give you hope because it’s really what you do afterwards and if you, obviously, if you come from one of these schools, you probably want to be in the top, 5 percent of the graduating class, you want to show that you have the GPA that can support an academic background that they feel comfortable that you’ll be able to compete academically, but, and maybe that’s what you’re Offset by the, the GMA or the scores, you don’t know, we don’t have those on here.

But, um, the path post university really becomes much more important in those cases. What you’ve done since then where you’ve, how you’ve risen from starting at a entry level position to, running a division or heading a country group or something like that.

[00:24:21] John Byrne: And as far as Cordon Bleu goes, every good business program needs a Cordon Bleu, for God’s sake, right?

You want to eat well at those NBA parties, don’t you?

[00:24:32] Heidi Hillis: Absolutely.

[00:24:35] John Byrne: Maria, I’m sure that was true at Harvard.

[00:24:38] Maria Wich-Vila: I wasn’t the one doing the cooking but I certainly, I was certainly a member of the wine and cuisine society where I happily participated in the eating and consuming a part of that.

But to, to the point that we were just recently talking about. regarding being a big fish in a small pond. Not only have I seen it personally with applicants that I’ve worked with who did not attend these elite universities, but even many years ago, I attended a, an admissions conference where Kirsten Moss, who was the former head of admissions at Stanford, she actually told stories about how they’ve accepted people who even attended community college.

But within the context of that community college, they had really moved mountains. And she said that one of the things that they look for is, Within the context and the opportunities that you’ve been given, how much impact have you had? So maybe you don’t have an opportunity to go to Yale or MIT or IIT for your undergraduate, but whatever opportunity you have been given, have you grabbed that opportunity and really made the most of it and really driven change?

So she specifically called out, I believe, I believe there were two students that year at the GSB who had both started their educations, their higher educations at community college. Anything is possible. It really is about finding the people who, wherever they go, they jump in and make an impact.

[00:25:55] Heidi Hillis: Yeah, I think that to that point, I think it can almost be a more difficult if you’ve gone to Harvard and then worked at one of these, gone on one of these paths because we know that there’s, that’s an overrepresented pool in the applicant pool to stand out among those to have had that, that pedigree sometimes can be a disadvantage, right?

If you haven’t done as much as you should have with that, or if you started at that high level to show that level of progress over the course of your career is actually a little bit more difficult. Okay. And coming from a community college and rising to, a country level manager in some places is actually puts you at a significant advantage, I would say.

[00:26:31] Maria Wich-Vila: Because it’s hard for those people, it’s hard for those people to stand out, but also I think some of them go on autopilot, right? I think some people are on this kind of achievement, elite achievement treadmill, where they’re not even really thinking about what do I want to do with my life?

They’re always reaching for whatever that next, what’s the best college to go to? It’s Harvard Princeton. Yeah. Okay. Now that I’m here, what’s the best employer to work for? It’s McKinsey, Bain, BCG and without actually perhaps stopping to think about what is my passion? What impact do I want to make in the world?

And so I feel sometimes those autopilot candidates, I feel a little bit bad for them because they’re doing everything quote unquote and yet sometimes when you speak with them, that passion just isn’t there. And I do think that may ultimately harm them in the very, very elite business school.

Admissions because business schools want people who are passionate because at the end of the day, in order to do hard things, you’re going to need passion at some point to get you through those low periods. And so I think that’s something business schools look for. And I do think that sometimes these.

These kind of autopilot candidates might sometimes be at a disadvantage.

[00:27:29] Heidi Hillis: Yeah, I think that, to that point look in the data, when you look at it, you see so many people who’ve gone to McKinsey, Bain, Weasley, or Goldman, but then there’s a, you see a lot of success for people who’ve actually pivoted.

So those pivots that are post The second or third job really do show you that, if you’re if you get a candidate who’s coming from, still at McKinsey, okay, that’s fine. They have to be the top 5 percent of McKinsey, like they have to be going to get so many McKinsey applicants that the only the, you can look at the data in a couple ways.

One is, oh, my God, they took 12 people from McKinsey and the others. Oh, my God, they only took 12 people from McKinsey, right? That’s So if you want to be one of those 12, you have to be the top 12 in the world, right? Whereas if you’ve gone to McKinsey and then done an externship at a health care startup and then moved on to be a product manager at for health at Google, that kind of a path is definitely showing a little bit more, maybe risk taking, maybe ability to follow your passions.

So I think that. When I see candidates who come to me, for example, and they’re like, not thinking about applying now, but maybe in a year or two, I say, look for an externship, maybe think about pivoting out of one of these places and looking for some operational experience.

And because you see in the data that works.

[00:28:42] Maria Wich-Vila: And they’re doing themselves a service not only in terms of enhancing their admissions chances, but even just in terms of determining, what do I want to do with my career? If I do eventually want to go into industry, what functional role do I want to have?

What industry do I want to work in? So it’s, it actually benefits them in the long term to do that as well, even if they don’t go to business school. I think those secondments and externships and second job, post consulting jobs are extremely valuable. Totally agree with you.

[00:29:06] Caroline Diarte Edwards: And I’m sure they also bring more to the classroom as well.

I would think that’s also why Stanford is selecting some of those candidates, because not only have they worked at McKinsey, but they’ve also led a non profit in Africa or worked in private equity or whatever it is. So they have much more breadth that they can bring to the classroom. And I think that It’s seen as a very valuable contribution

[00:29:29] John Byrne: in Heidi.

Did you see that? The majority of the candidates to examined actually did work in more than one place, right?

[00:29:37] Heidi Hillis: Yes, most of them did. There were very few that, you see working at one place. And I would say that those are people that would have really risen through the ranks.

Someone who’s worked at Walmart and become, started in, I don’t know, in one state, but then to become a regional manager and things like that really are going to onto a global role. The people who have stayed at one place really have shown significant career progression within that.

And then the other people I think you do see a lot of movement. The big. The most typical would be from investment banking to private equity and then you do find in finance, there’s a little bit less kind of movement into other industries. You see a lot of people staying within finance, but within finance.

Yeah. Yeah. The other industries, especially consulting or other, tech, people are really moving into other places and it’s becoming, it is a little bit difficult. We have these categories that we’ve talked about, for example, healthcare, but it’s hard to categorize some of these companies.

Are they healthcare? Are they tech? There’s a lot of overlap. And so everything’s a little bit of tech in something nowadays. So whether it’s finance and fintech or education and ed tech or health care and health tech, these are all merging and combining. It’s hard to categorize them.

[00:30:53] John Byrne: So looking at the data here I wonder if you’ve seen your old classmates in the sense that these new people are very much like the people you went to school with at Stanford. I

[00:31:05] Heidi Hillis: put this out and it’s really interesting to a lot of my classmates downloaded the report and read it. And a lot of them came back and said, oh, boy, I would never get in now.

It’s these people are super impressive. I think that you see a lot of. It’s just become more and more competitive. And I think that with more information and more people every year applying, it is becoming really difficult. I think that you do see a lot of, I am encouraged by the diversity part of it that you see still Stanford.

I feel like they do take risks on some really interesting profiles and candidates that maybe some other schools are less likely to do. And so that’s what does give me. A lot of hope when I get some kind of really nontraditional candidate who wants to, their dream school is Stanford. I feel like, I say all the time, there’s a 6 percent chance.

You’re going to get in, but there’s 100 percent chance. You won’t get in if you don’t apply. So you’ve got to, you got to give it a go. And that’s, the attitude that we take to it.

[00:32:04] John Byrne: Indeed. So for all of you out there read Heidi’s article on our site, it’s called who gets in and why exclusive research.

Into Stanford GSB and I’ll tell you one conclusion I have about this is that, man, if you really want to get into Stanford, you need a Sherpa, and and Heidi would be a great Sherpa for you because the, just the profiles of these folks, where they’ve been, what they’ve done, what they’ve accomplished in their early lives is so remarkable that To compete against, in this pool for a spot in the class you need every possible advantage you can get.

And and having an expert guide you through this trip probably would be a really big advantage. So Heidi, thank you for sharing your insights with us and the research, the very cool research.

[00:33:01] Heidi Hillis: Thank you

[00:33:03] John Byrne: and for all of you out there. Good luck. And if you want to go to Stanford, you got to check out this report.

Okay. It will inspire you to up your game, even if you are from Harvard, Stanford, Wharton, or wherever McKinsey, Bain, BCG, Goldman, Google, you want to look at this report and you want to really think about. What it will really take to get in. I think it will inspire you, motivate you to really put your best foot forward.

Thanks for listening. This is John Byrne with Poets& Quants.

Maria

New around here? I’m an HBS graduate and a proud member (and former Board Member) of AIGAC. I considered opening a high-end boutique admissions consulting firm, but I wanted to make high-quality admissions advice accessible to all, so I “scaled myself” by creating ApplicantLab. ApplicantLab provides the SAME advice as high-end consultants at a much more affordable price. Read our rave reviews on GMATClub, and check out our free trial (no credit card required) today!