Why You Were Rejected Without An Interview
Maria |
October 19, 2022

It’s not a secret that getting an MBA is a very challenging journey and needs excruciatingly long preparation. That is why not getting accepted for an MBA is disappointing. But getting dinged even before an interview is more frustrating. Particularly if you are among those with great standardized exam results and professional experience, you will assume that you will at least have an advantage.

If you’re one of those that were rejected despite the fact that there was no interview that happened, this episode is for you. It may look unfair, but is it really unfair? Listen in to what John, Maria, and Caroline have to say.

Episode Transcript

[00:00:07.290] – John

 Hello everyone. This is John Byrne with Poets and Quants. And welcome to Business Casual, our weekly podcast with my co host Maria Wich Vila  and Caroline Diarte Edwards. This time of the the year is the time that round one candidates, the eager beavers who applied to Elite business schools very early, are getting answers. The answers they get, well, you could be invited to an admissions interview. That would be the ideal answer at this point. Or you could be deferred and put on a waitlist for further consideration around two or the awful outcome you’re rejected outright without even an interview. Two weeks ago, Harvard Business School put out their notices and as the day and age where people rush to social media and report on every aspect of their life, well, of course, the people who were rejected and some who were accepted to at least get an interview went online and reported the results. One person dinged by Harvard said, trying to keep from bawling my eyes out at work today. Yes, it’s sad, it’s disappointing, it’s frustrating, particularly after you put a lot of work into your application. But what struck me was the number of people with exceptional standardized test scores that were getting dinged.

[00:01:32.280] – John

I’m just going to read you some quick reports here that were put online on Reddit. 760 G MAT veteran ding 770 Pilot dinged 330 GRE vet with a 3.65 from an idle university dinged top 20 university Army Vet three seven eight GPA 337 GRE dinged 760 Service Academy Grad dinged 770 GMAT magna Cum Laude at Ivy League ding. Here’s one that surprised me. 740 GMAT three seven GPA from a top five university, a first generation graduate with a low income background and a background in tech dinged. So obviously what we can’t tell from any of these quick descriptions of these disappointing results are what are these candidates really like? A test score. You’re not a test score. You’re an actual person who graduated from an undergraduate institution. Maybe it was highly selective or not. You have work experience, perhaps you have significant achievements at work. You have extracurricular activities, you have a GPA. In some cases we don’t have a GPA. And you have short term and post MBA career goals. You have letters of recommendations, your essays. We have no clue about any of that, which makes our guessing game as to why people, why these people and others get rejected.

[00:03:05.520] – John

But there are general reasons why people who appear to be exceptional candidates do get turned down. And Caroline and Maria, of course, have worked with many people who get in and a good number of people who don’t quite get into a Harvard or a Stanford, but get another really good choice. So Caroline, what separates the people who do get in from those who don’t who gets rejected? And do you have any reason at all to wonder why 757, 60, 77 GMAT who are military veterans could possibly be rejected without even an interview. So we’re not even talking getting accepted or not. We’re talking about not even being invited to an interview. How can that be?

[00:03:52.990] – Caroline

Yeah, it’s very tough, as you say. It does look extremely unfair. But as you also said, there are so many different elements to an application and so many different elements that have been considered as part of the candidates profile that without that full picture, it’s difficult to judge. Right. And there is an element of luck. These schools are so ridiculously competitive, and it depends on who is applying at the same time and who has a similar profile to you and whether or not they have something that gives them an edge over you. So there is an element of the lottery in applications to these very top schools. So I know it’s very tough to get that rejection, and my heart goes out to those candidates who, as you say, they’ve put their heart and soul into their applications. And it’s heartbreaking when it doesn’t work out. But you’ve got to realize that you’re in very good company, right? Lots of amazing people get rejected from these top schools, and it’s not the end of the story.

[00:04:56.860] – Caroline

You can still get into a fantastic program. You could apply to other schools. You can reapply next year. We’ve had people who’ve applied three times to HBS, and they finally got in.

[00:05:09.070] – Maria

Right.

[00:05:11.360] – Caroline

It’s not the end of the story by any means, but there’s so many different elements. I mean, we talk about Holistic review of the application, and there are so many different parts to that. So I think candidates can try to take a step back and reflect on whether they have any sense for whether there might have been aspects of their application that may not have been so competitive. It can also be helpful to get feedback from a third party, right? Someone who can look at it with fresh eyes and give you some feedback on whether they have any sense of where you might have compared less favorably on which element. But for sure, I mean, a strong GMAT does not guarantee getting interviewed at a top score, right? I mean, there are plenty of people with stellar GMATs, and I can remember turning people away from INSEAD with 800, right? It’s just sometimes they’re overconfident in this process and they’re not bringing enough in other dimensions. And there’s more to an academic profile, for a start, than a GMAT. And then there’s all of the professional experience, and that’s absolutely critical, right? You’re not going to get into a top business school just because you’ve got amazing academic profile, but you’re not also someone who has really proven themselves and is on a very strong fast track professionally.

[00:06:46.030] – Caroline

And then beyond that, you can be amazing on those dimensions. And the school might think, well, you know, you’re not a great fit for this program, right? Maybe there is some element where they think this is not the best school for you, or perhaps they see you as someone who is very focused on your career, but you haven’t done much outside of work and therefore they have doubts about whether you’ll contribute to the community beyond the academic experience and careers. They’re looking for people who are going to contribute to the school across a lot of different dimensions. So that is all important as well. So there’s just so many pieces to the puzzle. But I would encourage candidates to take a step back, reflect, and then think about your plan B. You can’t put all of your eggs in the basket of Harvard, Stanford, or Washington.

[00:07:44.050] – John

Unfortunately, that’s so true. And it’s worth noting that last year the acceptance rate of Harvard was 9.5%. Nearly 7500 applicants out of fewer than 8300 were rejected. And you got to know that a high percentage of those are people who are fully qualified to get in, would likely do very well in the MBA program, would land a great job, and be very successful because that’s how self selecting and elite the applicant pool is at a Harvard Business School, at INSEAD, London, at Stanford, Wharton, and other top schools. Maria, why do you think so many high GMATs with veterans no less? Because you know what? Veterans have had a lot of success in these programs. A lot of schools aim to get veterans in. They tend to be more mature, they’re well liked by the consulting firms. What do you mean? I rarely actually see this many 750 plus GMAT scores from veterans and this many rejections.

[00:08:52.310] – Maria

Well, yeah, in general, I sometimes wonder if folks think that the admissions committees ask for things like resumes and recommendations and essays and interviews just because they’ve got nothing better to do, or is it that they have an actual reason? You want to get to know who someone is on a pretty robust level. And so if it were just about the GMAT score and clicking a box of oh, where were you working? I was working at Amazon, I was working in the army. Then admissions officers wouldn’t have much of a job to do because you would just know within 2 seconds if you’re getting in or not. So when we you know, I think Caroline and I have been saying over and over again that we’re blue in the face that it is truly a holistic, holistic process for me, the academic portion, I talk to people about this sort of hierarchy of needs, right? So that there’s a you know, yes, there are all these different things that matter, right? Your academics matter and your job performance matters and your leadership, but they don’t all matter in the same way. So academics is the first hurdle that you need to cross as an applicant.

[00:09:57.240] – Maria

But once you cross it, it’s like, okay, we’re going to focus on so many other things. So if you can’t cross the academic hurdle. If I truly believe that someone’s just going to flunk out of a program, then it’s not worth spending anyone’s time on letting them further. But if somebody can handle it academically, now, my focus shifts towards a hundred other well, maybe not 100, but to many other things. And so for me, that academic hurdle is the first hurdle, but it’s also a hurdle that doesn’t matter as much if you squeak over the top of that hurdle by, like, a millimeter or if you sail over it by a mile. I don’t know that that part is what matters quite as much. You just need to prove that you can do the work. And then once I’m confident that you can do the work, now, my focus is going to really shift to other details within your application. So you were asking me specifically about military members and veterans who with very high scores. Well, for starters, I think the number of veterans applying is going up and up every year. Thanks so much to what nonprofits like Service to School are doing, as we spoke about a couple of weeks ago.

[00:11:03.970] – Maria

But then the challenge then is for military members. Now the bar is getting higher because now, you know, maybe 20 years ago, there were only three fighter pilots applying, and now there might be 40 fighter pilots applying. So now within that bucket, how do you stand within that bucket? And if somebody says, I’ve been in the military for five years, that could mean so many different things. That could be somebody, you know, leading people into literally leading people into battle. Or it could be that they were trying to make sure that the warehouse, the munitions were all in stock and making sure that the vehicles were all repaired. I’ve seen so many different responsibilities across military resumes over the years. And so, look, somebody who’s led a group of people into battle and someone who is responsible for making sure that the equipment is well oiled and working, you know, there are pretty different it’s a pretty different gap in terms of the leadership that’s been demonstrated. So simply knowing that someone was in the military and has a 760 GMAT doesn’t really tell me or any of us enough to sort of be shocked one way or the other.

[00:12:17.910] – John

Yeah, that’s really true. Now, I bet that both of you over the years have had candidates that you thought, oh, my God, there’s no question that they’re going to at least get interviewed and then surprise, surprise, they don’t. And then there are other candidates who you think, okay, I’m going to give it my best shot, but I know the odds are against this person, and I’m doubtful they’ll get in and get the interview at least, and then they surprise you when they get in. How does that happen?

[00:12:46.360] – Caroline

Caroline well, it comes back to being a competitive call, and only the admissions committee can see who you’re being compared against as a candidate. So we can comment on somebody’s individual merits, but we can’t comment on how they compare to the individuals who have applied at the same time. And so that’s always an important factor, especially at these schools, as you say, where the stats are quite terrifying in terms of the number of people that they’re turning away. I would say some of the ones where I have been frustrated. I can think of some candidates who just fascinating profiles. A wonderful professional experience. But maybe the GPA wasn’t so great or the GMAT wasn’t so great. But you love them as an individual.

[00:13:39.240] – Maria

And you know that they’re going to.

[00:13:40.140] – Caroline

Be so successful in the future. And you just really want them to get into that top school and you want the school to take a chance on them. And just sometimes it doesn’t work out right, and sometimes it does come back to those academic statistics that Maria mentioned, even though the candidate brings so much more to the table. And that can be very disappointing and frustrating. So sometimes it does come down to something as simple as that, but it really does depend on who else is applying and the timing. And there’s so many different criteria that the admissions committee will be assessing that, and it’s very rarely just one factor that will swing the decision in one direction or another.

[00:14:30.150] – John

Yeah, and as you point out, it’s really there are invisible things in the process that you can’t judge. For example, everyone is part of a sub segment competing with others, and more often than not, it comes out to, hey, I like this candidate better than that one. And we can only take this many candidates who are military veterans, or this many candidates who are consultants or investment bankers or product managers at tech companies or nonprofit types or NGOs, and we just happen to like this one a little bit better than the other one, even though there’s really nothing wrong with the other one. And I think that happens too. What’s interesting when you read the social posts of people who’ve been rejected is the angst in the frustration, which is understandable, but also the outright, I can’t believe that I was rejected. I don’t understand it. And then you get someone like, here’s a 730 GMAT 3.4 from what the candidate said was a random state university who was a Marine infantry officer. He got an interview, so people online asked him, well, how in the world what made the difference, do you think? He said, I had very strong letters of recommendation, and I’ve been number one ranked in several units I’ve been in.

[00:15:54.870] – John

Otherwise, I’ve been a typical grunt in charge of 50 to 500 people with a couple of deployments, one to the Middle East. I have several good ECS once my schedule settled down, and I spent a lot of time in my essay, not sure that that completely answers the question, but it gives some insight, I think. Maria, how about you? When have you been fooled and frustrated with your own candidates?

[00:16:19.150] – Maria

Well, just to go back to that person for a second, they said they weren’t an infantry officer, which I think means that they were literally people leading others into battle, which is I think I just said a few minutes ago, like, that’s the sort of thing that Harvard likes to see. I’m actually not surprised, even though they’re.

[00:16:33.300] – John

From a state public university and they have a three 4730, GMAT is 40, 50 points below others. Bingo.

[00:16:43.990] – Maria

It’s the hurdle. And if you picture a hurdle, it’s the academic hurdle. It doesn’t matter if you squeak over it by a little bit or you sail over it like, so high. You’re so high in space I can’t even see you. That’s how high, it doesn’t matter. Someone with a 730, can they do the work at Harvard Business School? Probably. Can they do well in the case environment? That’s what the interview is going to tell me. But if I’m talking to someone. If somebody’s like. Writing an essay about. I work with someone in the military a year or two ago who literally had to jump out of a helicopter to rescue someone who was in the water. And then somebody else is also in the military and thank everyone for their service. But that other person is like. Well. I had an inventory management system to make sure that we were ordering the right supplies on time. That’s great. Awesome. Everything is important. But in terms of raw leadership, the person who jumped out of the helicopter has had the opportunity to demonstrate more of that leadership. So in that situation, I don’t know, I’m actually not surprised at all.

[00:17:49.900] – Maria

I’m just a regular guy who has led 50 to 100 people in the battle. That’s amazing. Do you know how I mean, that’s so hard to do.

[00:17:59.890] – John

Really?

[00:18:01.010] – Maria

Yeah.

[00:18:03.410] – John

And we’re talking about not just people, we’re talking about diverse people and making sure you’re helping to motivate them to face, let’s face it, I mean, the dangerous situation you can face in life.

[00:18:18.190] – Maria

Seriously, like, you know, if someone can convince someone to potentially follow behind me, you might get shot to death or you might die. How much you know, if that person goes into the corporate world is like, hey, I need that presentation by Friday at five. Guess what? They’re not going to struggle as much as perhaps other people do in terms of exhibiting leadership in the corporate world. So something like that. I am not surprised. When we were talking a little bit about a second ago, like, what are some of the things that might have done these people in people who at first glance, you’re like, this is perfect. This candidate is like, there’s nothing wrong here. I think Caroline might have touched upon this a little bit, but first of all, I think, anything resembling a sense of entitlement. If you get a 760 and you’re from the military and you spend a lot of time on some of these message boards, which I don’t think you should do, people will pat you on the back and highfive you and say you are it all my you are golden. If you walk into the process thinking, I’m golden, then my essay is going to be all about like, here is an examination of how golden is Maria.

[00:19:17.280] – Maria

Maria is so golden. Here’s 900 words about how golden I am. And that’s going to totally strike the wrong tone. Or another mistake I see people make is two people might have, let’s say hypothetically, they have identical experiences, identical everything. But one person in the essay describes what they did on a shallow level. Right? I was in charge of the project. I called the meeting. I made sure that the team stayed on track. And the other person, however, describes their exact same experience, but they go into the emotional insights that they had in convincing someone. Right. Someone on the team wasn’t responding to my proposal. The client didn’t like my proposal. So what did I do about it? How did I use my emotional intelligence to drive that project forward? Even though those two people who have identical resumes, the one who demonstrates the sort of emotional maturity behind how they were able to get something to happen, that person is more, much more likely to get an interview versus someone who’s just like, well, you know, I put together the project. I have a lot of tips for the Harvard Business essay, but one of them is, tell me the story behind the bullet point.

[00:20:22.180] – Maria

Don’t just rewrite the bullet point. So the bullet point was, I led a project to do whatever. I can guess as a moderately educated person that if you’re leading a project that includes things like setting meetings, having a project plan coming out, you’re making sure that everyone is on time with the deliverables. So that’s assumed. But what I don’t know was that, I don’t know, your boss threatened to fire you the day before you had to scramble to catch someone was in an accident. Those sorts of hidden stories that really prove to me that you have leadership to inspire people or to motivate people or to change people’s minds, those are the details. So I think sometimes people might not focus on the right details. So even if they had an amazing experience, maybe they just didn’t describe it well enough within the essay.

[00:21:10.980] – Caroline

And that also brings it to life as well. Right? So you’ve got to remember that the admissions reader is plowing through dozens of applications at a time. And if you can tell a story, as Maria said, that really brings it to life and jumps off the page, then you’re going to make a much bigger impression than someone who just sort of regurgitates the facts that we’re already on the resume.

[00:21:33.690] – John

That’s really true. The other thing there are, because there are so many international applicants, it’s worth noting that in many other cultures, high test scores, high grades immediately grant you admission to their home country institutions. And really the game is to score well on a standardized test and to do well with your grades, and the story ends there. But that is really not true in business school admissions at the highest level, and it’s a very big difference. And it’s a difference that’s seldom understood, particularly by many international healthcare.

[00:22:13.160] – Caroline

That’s very tough, because if you don’t come from that culture, you may not have that backgrounded history of engagement and extracurriculars that a lot of North American candidates would have had since they were sort of five years old. Right. So it’s often a big challenge.

[00:22:32.140] – Maria

That also shows up in the essays as well. For example, if you’re talking about, like, an accomplishment, someone from one of those cultures might be more likely to say, well, one of my greatest accomplishments ever was that I came in first place in my city for a chess tournament, or I took the standardized test and I was in the top 1% of scorers in my country on this particular entrance exam. And so what a wasted opportunity, because that’s not according to, like, the sort of MBA definition of leadership. It’s an accomplishment in terms of, like, yeah, you have to work hard, but it’s not a leadership accomplishment. And so that’s another mistake that I think people make, is that they focus on the wrong. They either have the right accomplishment, but they don’t describe it well, or they focus on describing something that they think is going to impress the emissions officer, but it’s not.

[00:23:17.740] – John

Yes. Right. So I’ll go back to a lyric that Sinatra sang. He said, Pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and start all over again. And there was one really clearly exasperated candidate who went online and after reading all these reports, these disappointing results, said, ding, ding, ding. I made ten plus drafts in my essay. I worked closely with extremely helpful alumni. I read and reread my application. I regret nothing. But I got INSEAD, so that’s good consolation. Chin up, things squad. We’re relentless, and we’ll make Adcom’s regret not admitting us sooner. I don’t know how Caroline feels about.

[00:24:03.340] – Maria

That other.

[00:24:06.040] – Caroline

Consolation prize.

[00:24:07.620] – Maria

But anyway, it’s the revenge mindset that sort of like, whoa, I’m going to make them sorry. Oh, great. Cool.

[00:24:20.740] – John

You see, sometimes revenge should be great motivation for some people. Hey, it’s really true. Well, there you have it. Look, if you struck out on one or two or even three round one applications, there is round two. There are many great schools out there, many great MBA programs that would allow you to achieve your dreams and your ambitions. Pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and start all over again. Because it happens. Like Caroline mentioned, there are people that she has worked with who applied to Harvard three times, got in, the third time was a charm. I got to wonder, in terms of reapplying, what new stories they had to tell, something new in their backgrounds and application to warrant an admin, I would imagine. Right, Caroline?

[00:25:13.780] – Caroline

Yeah, you’ve definitely got to show evolution and show how the significant progression in your profile, you can’t just reapply with the same old story.

[00:25:23.310] – John

And when you reapply, do you actually say, I applied last year and I was rejected, but now I understand why and this is what I’ve done as a result. Or you just ignore the fact that you applied earlier. You don’t want them thinking that they already rejected you.

[00:25:39.220] – Caroline

What’s your well, they know. Everybody knows, right? The school knows that you’re a re applicant. They keep track of that. They will know. So you can’t sort of pretend that you’re a new applicant and they’ve never seen you before. That’s not going to work.

[00:25:58.350] – John

But then do you address it directly.

[00:25:59.980] – Caroline

Or there’s different ways of doing it? But you do need to show that you have learnt something from the process that you’ve reflected and that you are coming back as a more mature and more valuable addition to the program. And so it’s good to show that you have some understanding of why you were not the great candidate or for HBS or GSB or in Seattle or wherever it is last time around and how you have been proactive in addressing that.

[00:26:31.470] – John

Of course, Caroline just strolled into INSEAD, was never rejected, never had to reapply. Same is true of Maria at Harvard School. They just rolled out the red carpet for both of you.

[00:26:43.990] – Caroline

Yeah, we’ve never failed anything.

[00:26:45.550] – Maria

Maria, they rolled out the red carpet once I paid that tuition deposit.

[00:26:55.160] – John

Touche. All right, everybody. Hey, good luck to you. And if you did get a disappointing result, we feel for you. But know that there are plenty of other schools out there and if you got what it takes, you’re going to get in. This is John Byrne with Poets and Quants. You been listening to Business Casual or weekly podcast.

Business School News | General | P&Q Podcast "Business Casual"
Why You Were Rejected Without An Interview
Maria |
October 19, 2022

Full Episode Transcript:

John Byrne: [00:00:00] Hello everyone. This is John Byrne with Poets and Quants. Welcome to Business Casual, our weekly podcast. We want to talk about international students. Schools are now reporting that a good number of their international recruits who were admitted to programs this fall haven’t been able to show up or have changed their mind.

At the University of Illinois, the school, the Gies College of Businesses, lost about 200 international students in its Master of Finance and Master of Business Analytics programs causing a $7 million hit. To their budget at UC Davis Graduate School of Management, 40 students didn’t show up who were admitted, and that’s resulting in two and a half to $3 million hit on their budget this year.

Both of these things have occurred before the announcement of a hundred thousand dollars tax on H one B Visa. Which will make it more difficult for many employers [00:01:00] to hire international students and keep them in the US for an extended period of time. And we’re getting the new class reports of the, of the new cohorts of students who’ve arrived on campus in the fall of this year.

And Carnegie Mellon is. Down 30% for their international cohort over the past two years. UCLA Anderson School is down 25% over the past two years, and schools are preparing for the worst because of the H one B Visa decision which could affect future employment. Caroline and Maria, my cohosts are in the market helping people get into the best schools in the world.

And Caroline, what do you think?

Caroline Diarte-Edwards: Yeah, definitely seeing concern among international candidates and people holding off on applying for the US schools. So it’s really a shame. I think the international schools, particularly the schools like Inea and London Business School and the other top.[00:02:00]

International European programs will benefit, they’ll get talent that might otherwise have come to the us, which is great for those schools. And I’m very fond of those schools, but it is sad as from the US perspective for sure. On the other hand, you could also take the perspective that.

If you do have options for your career post MBA that don’t require that you absolutely have to stay in the US as an international candidate, then now could be a very good time to apply, right? Because definitely application volume will be down and schools will be perhaps. More open to candidates that might otherwise have been waitlisted or rejected in the past.

For some candidates, this is actually a fantastic opportunity to get into a top school, but from, for, at least from the school’s perspective, it is a shame because, I’ve experienced firsthand the value of a very internationally diverse classroom and the value that brings with a [00:03:00] diversity of perspectives that enriches the learning experience so much for everybody.

Enriches the debate and bring so much to the academic experience as well as the the network and the social experience. So it’s everybody’s loss, right?

John Byrne: Very true.

Caroline Diarte-Edwards: And I think it’s a very myopic perspective that the US government takes that. There needs to be a more of a refocus at US educational institutions on the domestic market because those international applicants bring a lot to the domestic students in enriching their learning and enriching their network.

Of course bring a huge value to the US economy when they stay. So there are very impressive statistics on the value of immigrants to the US economy. So Indian immigrants, for example, are only about one and a half percent of the US population, but they have founded to date about 8% of all the tech startups in the us.[00:04:00]

And for sure some of that top talent from India will now not come to the us. They will go to perhaps they will stay at the great schools that we’ve talked about in India, or they will go to other international schools. So for sure it will be a loss to the us learning experience and to the US economy.

John Byrne: Maria, you run applicant lab which is a platform that helps applicants get into highly selective schools. And many of the people who use your product are international students. What are you seeing?

Maria Wich-Vila: Everything Caroline is saying concern is think a delicate way to put it.

And I think it’s because as the more affordable provider in the market, I tend to get the applicants who maybe they don’t have the family business to fall back on. Maybe they don’t have, large sources of income elsewhere in their lives. And so I think the concern is very real and very merited, right?

I can’t. In good faith, tell someone, if they [00:05:00] really start, sit down and do the math and start to do, run the numbers, if they just assume that things are going to stay as is. And this is the big caveat that I’m, I want to get to in a second, but if we assume that things stay as is and if someone really is from a lower income tier from Nepal or India or some of the other countries that I work with, yeah, maybe sit down and do that math and think about, okay, if I do have to come back to Nepal afterwards, how will I pay back that loan? There, there is though some good news. Even if we assume that things stay status quo, which I hope, and I’m pretty, I’m I think it’s, I’m cautiously optimistic that they won’t.

But there are other markets as well. So I’ve had a lot of candidates, or former clients, I should say, graduate from business school, not be able to get jobs in certain in countries and then. Being able to move to Dubai. Dubai for some reason, has started attracting a ton of candidates, primarily from South Asia but from other parts of the world who might be having trouble getting some of those work permits.

You could do worse than live in, Dubai’s not perfect, but [00:06:00] you could also do worse than live in Dubai, right? The salaries are pretty high. The standard of living, if you have a white collar job there is, it’s not the worst outcome. So it’s not I can’t stay in the us. That’s it.

There’s no other it’s not a binary of, it’s either the US or it’s nothing. And then I think the second point is I, we’ve just seen. So many things, let’s take something from a different facet of policy. The tariffs, right? The tariffs were announced and the markets went crazy, and in the months that have followed, oh, actually, here’s the tariff, but this one company, their products aren’t gonna be subject to the tariff.

And then there’s this other company that maybe they’re not gonna have to pay the same tariff. And I can’t help but wonder if some of these. Some of these very large companies that are getting tariff exemptions, their ability to lobby for. The H one B, maybe lowering of the H one B fee. If they’ve been able to successfully lobby tariffs, they might be success, able to successfully lobby against these, true, these [00:07:00] visa fees.

And a lot of these big companies, these big tech companies are in fact some of the largest employers of post MBA talent in the us. So I am cautiously optimistic that. This could be, hopefully right now it’s the big, the flash and storm and the, the making, the big splash, right?

Everything’s about showmanship and making the big splash. And maybe in the aftermath of the storm, that initial PR media storm, maybe the reality will start to calm down a little bit. Yeah, the other good news is that if you’re applying now, that means you would enroll in 2026. You would, if it, if you’re talking about the US two year program, you would graduate in 2028.

At that point, who knows what might happen. I like to think that what we have seen so far in terms of the Visa policies, hopefully. Roughly the floor about as bad as it can get. I think if they start implementing a similar thing to OPT, that could be the same thing. But if we just assume that okay, right now what’s been announced is that these foreign students all have to do, you can’t stay here, you have to [00:08:00] go someplace else.

It, we assume that’s like the initial negotiating position. It’s just gonna chip, it’s just gonna get, it’s got nowhere else to go. It’s even worse. So we’ve, we now have two and a half years roughly until. People applying now would have to really implement, or be really affected by this in a.

In a pragmatic and tangible way. And so that’s why I’m hoping that the little chipping away and the chipping away things will start to get a little bit better and a little bit better and a little bit better like we’ve seen with other facets of policy. Didn’t like a bunch of the CDC employees that were all fired under Doge didn’t more than half of them I think were recently rehired.

Yes. Back again true. Whatever you think of the policy, it seems like some of the policies are. Being slowly walked back. And so I think if you. If you’ve got an adventurous spirit, I, and by the way, if you apply now, sorry. I know I keep going, but I like, if you apply now, let’s say you get accepted, you don’t have to show up until August of 2026.

So that will give you [00:09:00] time, like definitely. Apply now and see what happens between now and August of 2026 to make the decision to not apply now, because you’re rightfully scared. I’m not blaming anyone, but to not apply now, maybe by maybe six months from now he’ll be like, ha, just kidding. I’m doubling the number of H one Bs.

Yeah, we have no idea what’s gonna happen. So things are So give yourself that optionality.

John Byrne: Yeah. And things are so uncertain that could very well happen because, one day at tariffs are on one country the next day they’re not one day they’re pausing the ab the interviews for student visas, the.

Say they’re not there’s litigation all over the place, challenging many of the presidential actions that have been taken that have put them in limbo despite all the headlines. So it’s, it, there’s more uncertainty than there is certainty about any of these things. And as you point out, you, if you [00:10:00] did apply this year, the odds are gonna be in your favor if you’re an international student, frankly, because there is no question.

That international applicant volume will be down at all the top schools in the us, which means that to maintain some semblance of a global class. Admission directors are going to have to dig a little bit deeper into their international applicant pools to select candidates. In a way, if you play the long term and in the BA, in, in many graduate degrees or long term bet, I think you’re gonna be.

Oddly better off. And it may even be that the schools will really even go out of their way to help international students in ways that they haven’t in the past because of these actions in Washington. And what do I mean by that? Just a more welcoming reception than the already welcoming reception you would get hiring immigration lawyers and people that can help you.

If in fact there is a [00:11:00] challenge of one kind or another. I think the takeaway is not to be discouraged and throw up your hands to say, ah, I always dreamed of coming to the United States and getting an MBA or a graduate degree in business. Use this as an opportunity to actually increase your odds of getting into a better school with the understanding that when you get out there, probably most likely be an administration change and a change in these policies if they even get completely adopted as Maria points out.

Wouldn’t you think that’s the best strategy, Caroline?

Caroline Diarte-Edwards: Yes, I agree. I think that it’s good to take a longer term perspective because it is such a long timeline, right? If you’re applying to a top two year program as you say, you’re gonna be coming out of the program at the end of the Trump presidency and things may look very different.

And Maria rightly points out that. Everything is very volatile, right? So one thing gets announced and the next week it [00:12:00] gets rolled back, right? They’ve done so many things where they’ve realized, oh, actually that was a really bad idea after all. So

They’ve changed things. So things may not it might, may not turn out to be as bad as we fear.

And then I would also encourage candidates. To apply to the US schools, but why not hedge your bets and apply to an international program as well? Agreed in a time of uncertainty. As Maria said, create options for yourself. And so I would encourage candidates to apply to the top US programs, but also apply to top international programs as well and see what offers you get.

And then you can make a decision. As Maria said, it will be closer to the time when you would be starting the program and there may be more clarity about the situation in the US and what your options are in international markets as well. So I think that given the current circumstances, a good strategy is to hedge your bets and apply more widely than you might [00:13:00] have otherwise done.

John Byrne: Plan Bs are good. Let me just say business schools in the US have for years advised international students that those should have a plan B in the event that they can’t get with a US company. The other thing to, to keep in mind incidentally, in terms of MBA employment is that most of the companies.

That basically employ the lion’s share of MBAs are all global concerns. So you can be hired here and if there’s any challenge in getting you employed here in the us you can simply start in an office outside the United States with a hope of coming back when things clear up. So that is also another important thing to keep in mind.

And I’ll just say this. Despite whatever messaging you’re reading in your local newspapers or on your streaming platforms or television stations about how immigrants may not be welcome in the us that’s not true at all. Universities are diverse places. Welcoming. [00:14:00] Embracing loving the diversity of their students and particularly those from different cultures and backgrounds that enrich the educational experience.

There is no Dean that I’ve ever encountered who said they want fewer international students. It’s the exact opposite. They’re putting out message after message, telling people that they’re still welcome and wanted. Needed in the classroom. Now, Maria, in the past we’ve seen applicants who try to say, okay, can I time my application and my enrollment in a program to what I think might be the next recession?

And we know that in recessions applications go way. In part because some people lose the opportunity to gain advancement in a recession. Some people get unemployed. Some people just realize, hey, a recession is a good time to take a time out and get a new educational credential, which may allow me to do things I otherwise can’t do.[00:15:00]

But it’s almost impossible to time a recession and I’m imagining it’s impossible to time what’s going on here now.

Maria Wich-Vila: Yeah. I mean if we could all time, when everyone’s been talking about a stock market crash that to, not to bring another disparate topic in, but like everyone’s been talking about, it’s a bubble.

It’s a bubble. I’ve been hearing ’cause a bubble for a year and a half. True. Yeah, you can’t time or ask, for example, ask the people who enrolled in business school, like who got into business school in 2020. Like there’s always gonna be these external shocks. We can try to predict a recession, but who knows if it’s going to happen?

Who knows if there’s going to be some sort of virus or the opposite of a virus. Maybe there’ll be a virus that helps us all live healthily forever. Who knows? There’s so much uncertainty out there that who knows what to do. So I think. I think yeah, have that optionality. I think go ahead and apply.

Now if there is a recession though, which everyone seems to think is coming at some point, at that point, it’s going to be harder to get accepted. And as Caroline has pointed out, so rightfully, if other international, high quality international students are [00:16:00] spooked by the current H one B talk, now is your chance.

International candidate. Jump in there, shoot your shot like you might be able to get into a school, assuming of course that you’re qualified, but. You might have a lot less competition now than you normally will, so this could be a golden opportunity for you. And one final as one thing that I wanted to point out was that I was thinking, okay, Maria, let’s say that, you just said that maybe there’s gonna be walk back of some of these and there’s gonna be, maybe he’s gonna change.

But even if there isn’t a change, right? Let’s think about this. The companies themselves are gonna have, and you started to alluded to this John, when you mentioned that a lot of them are global concerns. They’re gonna have now a two year window in which to say. Okay. We know that we’re not gonna keep these people in the states, so let’s open a huge office in Vancouver.

Let’s open a brand, an enormous new office in Toronto. Whatever that is. Because I was thinking back to over the summer when it looked like maybe a bunch of international students wouldn’t be able to get any student visa at all. And I know that some of the business schools we’re looking [00:17:00] at, do we rent out some space in Toronto and do Zoom classes?

We do a hybrid. What we did during COVID. I’ve heard that. I think Rice, I was actually having dinner last night with a dear friend who was, say he’s from Texas and he was saying that Rice has some sort of a campus in Paris and that they are leaning really heavily on their global campuses around the world to still be able to service these students who had gotten accepted.

So things like that, like if. Even if our sort of my very cautious and perhaps irrational optimism turns out to not be true, let’s say the things get, the OPT is banished and all, everyone is banished and it’s the worst case scenario. Again, there’s gonna be two and a half years for these companies. To quickly find, okay, fine, we’re gonna open up an office in Mexico City and we’re gonna pay people really well and we’re gonna what?

Whatever that is. ’cause they’re, the companies are still gonna want the talent, right? Just because the political administration doesn’t want the global talent in the country. That doesn’t mean that the country’s employers don’t want that talent. They [00:18:00] want that talent, they want that intellect, they want that energy and that drive to make their companies better and to make more money.

So they have a very strong incentive to not only be lobbying for these. Visa changes to go away, but if they don’t go away, they have a very strong incentive to come up with some way to provide, to provide those incomes and to provide those perks and some sort of a compromise type of situation.

So again I think if you’re applying now, if you’re going in with eyes wide open, shoot your shot. That’s my, I would absolutely tell people to to try that.

John Byrne: Yeah, I totally agree. And, generally this is my rule of thumb and Maria and Caroline, you may or may not agree with this, at the top MBA programs, they’re so selective that the people who apply to them generally are very self-selecting group.

So I always say that roughly 80% of the school’s applicant pool. Is qualified to actually get accepted, get in, do [00:19:00] well, and land a good job. And yet we know that at Stanford, the acceptance rate is 6%, that Harvard is 12 Wharton and Columbia is, a little under 20 or so. So there are a lot of really good candidates who aren’t getting in.

Which leads me to this, if you’re an international student who thinks okay, so these US schools just might dip a little more into the domestic pool to make up for the offset of international candidates. As it turns out, there is a little notice. Clause in the big beautiful tax bill that was passed here under Trump that places severe limits on federal loans for graduate students.

Now, the current grad plus loan program allows students to borrow up to the cost of their graduate programs. That comes to an end in July of next year. After that, grad students borrowing will literally be capped at [00:20:00] 20,500 bucks a year with a lifetime graduate school loan limit of a hundred thousand. That’s a big deal because, at the top MBA programs it’s not on typical.

For a student to borrow over a hundred thousand dollars easily. And so these caps are also going to affect domestic enrollment. So again, that, that contributes to your ability as an international candidate to get in both. The likely decline in competition not only from internationals but also from domestic students here, interestingly enough, that Bill, which passed has different limits for a professional graduate degree, but the bill basically says that only med school and law school qualify as professional degrees and not business school.

That’s another wacky thing that’s happened that will affect. Domestic enrollment as well. So I, I side with Maria and [00:21:00] Caroline to me the advice is, look long term. Don’t be affected overly affected by the change in policies in the US or the climate here. Understand that if you apply now and you matriculate next year and you graduate in two years after that you’re gonna be facing probably a very different environment.

Also understand the odds are in your in your favor, in getting into a highly selective, really good program in this coming year. And know that, while people too often calculate the value of an MBA based on short term variables, like what’s my starting salary gonna be? What is my sign-on bonus?

The truth is the MBA has enduring value over your lifetime. So it rewards you over your entire career and not just for the first or second years. And you can’t go wrong by graduating into a network of helpful and supportive people from a great school and [00:22:00] receiving a great education. So I think bottom line, we’re telling you apply.

Don’t get convinced by your colleagues or anyone else that this is a bad time to come to the us. Opportunity. Some of the best opportunity come comes when people perceive there to be significant challenges. And I think this is really true with business school. We hope we convinced you to come and try and hedge your batts too, as Caroline noted.

I think that’s really super important to have a plan B when you apply and toss a bunch of apps to the European schools which have excellent superb world class MBA programs and real international cohorts. 90% of the students not from the countries where the schools reside. Toss a bunch of them in your mix for your target schools to give you these different options at the end of the day.

This is John Byrne with Poets and Quants. Thanks for listening.

Maria

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