Why This Year’s Round 3 Deadlines Are Different
Maria |
March 8, 2022

Round 3: At this point in the admissions cycle, your potential of being accepted to your dream business school is getting slimmer, as the vast majority of seats have already been filled. Are you wondering what your chances are of being accepted into an MBA program in Round 3 this year?

In this episode of Business Casual, you’ll learn why Caroline (of Fortuna Admissions) advises against continuing your application in the third round, especially if you want to attend a top program

Episode Transcript

[00:00:07.690] – John

Welcome to Business Casual, our weekly podcast at Poets and Quants. This is John Byrne with P&Q. I have with me, my cohost, Maria Wich-Villa and Caroline Diarte Edwards. You know them? Then well, I bet you could tell each one apart by their voice. And I hope you can tell me apart from them by my voice. Hey, it’s that time of the year again when there are a lot of the round two application deadlines are pretty much done and finished. And there are people out there who are wondering about round three at US schools. At the European Asian schools are typically longer deadlines and additional rounds. But what about round three? The common perception is that, man, your chances are really low if you apply in that final round, because after all, the vast majority of seats in the classroom are already gone. And what admission directors are typically looking for are people who are underrepresented in one way or another and fashioning their class make up. So we want to explore this round three because we’re thinking this one is going to be different and will tell you why. Domestic applications to US business schools is way down in MBA programs, in many cases in double digits at different schools.

 

[00:01:27.300] – John

There is a war for women to reach gender parity after Wharton hit the 52% Mark with its cohort that enrolled last fall. And US schools have as a major priority, diversity and inclusion. So there’s also a race to get more diverse classmates in those cohorts. And we think this is creating an unusual opportunity in round three for domestic candidates overall and then particularly for women and for diverse candidates. Caroline, what do you think?

 

[00:02:05.060] – Caroline

Yeah, I think you may be right, John. Often we advise candidates against applying round three, especially for the very top schools, because typically they allocate the vast majority of their places in rounds one and two. Right. So chances are very slim in round three. And I think the Stanford admissions director once described it as sort of desperate chances in round three, very incredibly long shots. Even more also been in the early rounds, if you wait to the last round. But we’ve had a very unusual ride over the past couple of years with the pandemic creating a surge of applications. And often when there’s a surge of applications, that’s followed by a dip.

 

[00:02:50.370] – Caroline

Right.

 

[00:02:50.770] – Caroline

Because it’s pulled demand forward to a certain point in time. So people who might otherwise perhaps have applied now maybe already applied last year because of their circumstances then. So it created a search then followed by a dip now. And that’s often been the case historically when you look back at how things pan out over time with application volume. So I think you’re right that there is a bit of a dip now. And also typically in round three, admissions committees are looking to fill out the class, and they’re looking very carefully at the class statistics.

 

[00:03:32.700] – Maria

Right.

 

[00:03:33.020] – Caroline

So they’re looking to use that round to craft, put the finishing touches on the class and make sure that they’re meeting their goals of number of women, different profiles, not having too many consultants or investment bankers or engineers looking for more diverse profiles. And so round three is often really critical for that, and probably this year even more so if you have a profile that is not one of the most common profiles in the pool, then you probably do have a better shot in this round than you would have had, for example, twelve months ago.

 

[00:04:13.080] – John

Maria, what’s your general advice on round three?

 

[00:04:16.790] – Maria

Yes, I think well, first off, in case this hasn’t already been said, I think international candidates should not consider around three, even if there are more spots now than usual. There are so many hurdles to jump, especially if you’re applying to a US. Right. The visa process and you have to get a loan and scholarship money. As we were chatting a little bit before we started recording, at this point, scholarship money may not really be exhausted at this point. So I do think that this advice would really only apply to domestic candidates. And as Caroline said, people who have something relatively unique to add to the pool from rounds one and two, consultants, bankers, engineers, not only are those seats getting filled, but there’s a waitlist, probably a pretty extensive wait list of those folks from the earlier rounds already. Right. But I think in round three, people from say, I think the military, for example, those folks have a pretty good chance in round three, in part because sometimes if they are deployed or if they still have to fulfill a certain number of years of their service, they may have sort of an excuse for why they haven’t applied sooner.

 

[00:05:23.390] – Maria

Or entrepreneurs, for example, I think could be let’s say that someone tried to be an entrepreneur for the past couple of years and only in the past month or two they realized I either need the MBA to keep this growing or maybe I shouldn’t keep this growing and I should go back to business school and figure out what I did wrong. So I do think it has to be someone who is a strong candidate and who brings something unique. I also think I would be more inclined to tell someone to do it if they were a little bit on the older side, only because I do think that there’s a point after which it becomes really hard as an older candidate to justify going back for a full time MBA. So if someone is sort of at the six year Mark, seven year Mark of experience post College, I would say, hey, go for it, because for you the clock is ticking. I refer to it as the expiration date. Right. If you’re nearing your expiration date, you might as well apply now. But if you’re only two or three years, I would even still advise you to perhaps wait until round one is only six months away.

 

[00:06:29.670] – Maria

For most people, it’s probably better to simply wait until the round one. That’s coming up. But, yeah, like Caroline said, I think some people this could be a great chance for them. Why not grab the opportunity and see what happens?

 

[00:06:42.330] – John

Yeah. And one of the reasons why domestic apps are down so much is because the US economy has been very strong despite the lingering pandemic, and that’s kept people at work, because more opportunities exist in front of them and they feel they may not need to go to graduate school right now. The other thing that I hear happening from many admissions directors at both Berkeley and UVA Garden and other schools is that after someone gets admitted, employers are doing everything they can to hang on to them. They are offering off calendar raises and promotions and cool assignments to keep them in their seats and to keep them out of business school. And that’s opening up some opportunities around three, I think that would never have been available in the past. Now, Caroline, you’ve been on the other side of this fence, and I’m sure candidates that you’ve admitted that NCR who were told that their company just offered them a new promotion or a big raise or a really cool assignment, and now they don’t want to go to NCI even though you admitted them. What would you tell them?

 

[00:07:56.310] – Caroline

Every year I speak to candidates who have been admitted, and they really wanted to come, but the company was doing everything they could to stop them leaving and offering all sorts of exciting new projects and promotions and more money and so on. And that is incredibly difficult to turn down. It’s very hard to walk away from success. But I think that candidates need to take the long term view, because by their very nature, by definition, the vast majority of candidates heading off to the top schools or they all are very successful young people who are going to have lots of opportunities. Right. And regardless of whether they go to business school, they have a great profile and they can get job offers, et cetera. But I think they need to take a long term view of what is in the best long term interests. Right. The company that they’re working for does not necessarily have you as a candidate have your long term interest at heart. They’re looking to hang on to you for the benefit of the company. And maybe in the short term that’s great for you, but it might not be the best thing for you in the long term.

 

[00:09:10.800] – Caroline

Right. There’s a lot of long term pay off of doing the MBA and doors that will open, but otherwise will remain closed and the network that supports you throughout your career. And I think it’s a shame when candidates sort of hesitate to take up a great offer to go to business school and walk away because of those other opportunities, because often it’s not in their longer term interests. You may be able to get a deferral.

 

[00:09:42.630] – Caroline

Right.

 

[00:09:43.120] – Caroline

Or maybe you can reapply later, but there’s no guarantee that that will happen. And I think there is a sort of optimal time for most people to go off to business school. And if you leave it too long, then maybe you won’t get back in again, or maybe it’s going to have such a big impact on your career.

 

[00:10:00.880] – John

Right.

 

[00:10:01.200] – Caroline

You might as well have passed your best. As Bruce said, I know it’s very difficult to turn down great opportunities when they’re raining down on you, but I would tell candidates to think very carefully before turning down an offer to head off to business school when if that was their dream school and they really wanted to go there. Keep in mind what was the original motivation for applying and keep in mind the longer term benefit that that will have.

 

[00:10:32.540] – John

Yeah, I always say and I always think this is really true in general. If you’re about to leave your company for another job or for graduate school and suddenly your company recognizes the contribution that you’ve made, meaning that they didn’t recognize it fully before. There is a sense of being held up. And I don’t think that that is a positive in the long term for you at your company. You’re given a new opportunity so you don’t leave, and you’re only given that new opportunity because they don’t want you to leave. But now they feel, oh, my, we have to give you something that we wouldn’t ordinarily have given you. And there could be some unspoken resentment over that. That’s especially true when people change jobs and they’re talked out of a new job. Oh, you’re going to leave us for that? I imagine it’s the same for graduate school. Maria, what do you think?

 

[00:11:26.190] – Maria

Yeah, absolutely. I was offered unofficially something really exciting to move to Italy, actually, to continue my career there. And on some levels, look, that actually would have been the right choice. But I also think, look, as Caroline said, ultimately I was really on the fence. But the thing that ultimately tipped me towards doing the MBA was thinking about the long term and something that I had spoken to a female mentor of mine who had gotten an MBA. And she said, look, if you ever need to take time out in the future from your career, whether voluntarily or involuntarily having that MBA, is just going to help you jump back into the workforce in a way that you otherwise would not have. It’s either going to give you the network, it’s going to give you the credibility. And so I think that was the argument that ultimately tipped me over. And then the other thing was I was told, well, Maria, you’re already en route to running a division so far. Like Caroline said the sort of Catch 22 of MBA admissions is that you don’t get in unless you’re already a superstar at work.

 

[00:12:29.170] – John

Right?

 

[00:12:29.530] – Maria

So the good news is if you don’t get the MBA, you’re probably going to continue being a superstar. And so one of the messages I received was like, wow, but if you just hang in there for another couple of years, we are going to give you that general manager responsibility. And the other thing that tipped it towards me leaving and going to get the MBA was I thought, well, but what if I get that position and I mess it up because I don’t actually know formally stuff about marketing and operations and all this. I’m pretty much self taught in a lot of this. And what if that’s not good enough and I blow it? So that was part of it. I had seen people rise quickly through the ranks and I had seen those people just as quickly get their heads chopped off if they blew it. So I was like, Well, I don’t want that to be me. So, yes, as Caroline was saying, I think ask yourself, what sorts of things are you looking for in the long term in your career and in your life? And also ask yourself if 24 months ago, this very same employer was mumbling about layoffs and dropping hints that you might have to take some time off of unpaid leave.

 

[00:13:31.780] – Maria

Just sort of remind yourself of how you felt 24 months ago when the pandemic started. And if they’re sweet talking to you now, ask yourself, what did I feel that they had my back back then?

 

[00:13:41.650] – John

Oh, boy, that’s a really good point. It’s so easy to forget that. It really is. So in general, for round three, what we’re saying here is there may be a unique opportunity for domestic applicants who are female or diverse in general, it’s a tough round because most of the seats have been filled and what admission officers are looking for are basically filling out the class profile. Maybe they need some people from healthcare, from manufacturing, maybe they need some military candidates. So there’s a bit of more randomness to round three admissions than is even around one and round two. The other thing about round three and this is another important aspect of it is that as we mentioned earlier, the European and Asian schools have extended deadlines. And so technically, if you’re an international application and you want to apply and get into a school later this year, really at this point, your best bet is one of the European schools. Ncr has it five or six deadlines and two intakes every year. Right, right.

 

[00:14:51.310] – Caroline

Well, so there’s four deadlines for each intake and there are two intakes. So there’s eight deadlines here. There’s a lot more flexibility there than you have at the top US scores. Right. You have all of those deadlines. So certainly for someone who’s thinking right now about applying. I think, as you say, the international programs are a great option to consider.

 

[00:15:11.130] – John

True. And in those cases, because of those longer deadlines, I would imagine that the scholarship money is spread out a little bit better than it would be at US schools where most of it is expanded in round one, round two, and there’s nothing left for round three, which is another consideration. I think that if you really need money to go to an MBA program, you really want to be applying around round two. And round one is even preferable than three for sure. Right?

 

[00:15:43.920] – Caroline

Yeah. Actually, it’s better to apply in round one or round two for scholarship money as well, then three or four. There are still some funds available, but far less later on. So for someone who is targeting getting that financial support, we should consider applying earlier. But applications have just opened. Right. For the January intake. You can get your application in early for. Yeah, that’s right. For next January.

 

[00:16:13.350] – John

Is there any general advice for round two applicants? Do you need to explain why you’re applying in what could often be the last round of the business school admission cycle? Is that necessary? Because you don’t want people to think, oh, you came at this at the last minute and you put together a sloppy application.

 

[00:16:32.730] – Maria

Yeah. So I’m a very big fan of always addressing the elephant in the room in your application, whether that’s a low GMAT, a low GPA, getting laid off, anything that might cause this moment of, like, in the reader. I am a big fan of just addressing it upfront. And so I think there are two risks to applying in round three beyond simply the fact that it’s later. One is, as you just mentioned, you might put together a very sloppy application, and two, it might be, oh, okay. So you applied to other schools, you didn’t get into any of them, and now you’re crawling back to us. Like, where were you six months ago? You weren’t on our webinar, you haven’t signed up for our mailing list. You haven’t reached out to any students. Like, oh, you’re sort of the leftovers, and you’re viewing us as, like, the leftover. So that way, even if you get in and you come here, are you really going to be super into me? Like, are you going to be engaged in the campus and excited to be here, or are you just going to view it as, like, the consolation prize?

 

[00:17:33.090] – Maria

I absolutely just explain what happened. Unless, of course, if it was, I applied to other schools I liked more and I didn’t get into any of them. But you can always have there might be a really important project at work. Maybe there was a new product launch that had to happen by a certain date and you were just swamped with it. There might be personal health reasons, there could be a number of reasons. So if you have a good reason or at least a plausible reason that you could write about. It might not be the actual reason that you’re applying around three but if it works, absolutely just address it upfront like any time there might be a question Mark appearing over the Reader’s head you just want to squash it up front whenever you can.

 

[00:18:15.670] – John

That’s true. That’s a really good point because everyone, including a business call wants to know that it is wanted and not a leftover or a second or third choice and explaining that you are all out on a heavy assignment or that there was some your parents had covet or whatever it is and you couldn’t get to the apps earlier. But this is the school of my choice, school of my dreams. This is where I’ve always wanted to go and getting that into the optional essay or even the railer essay if there’s no optional essay is probably worthwhile for round three. Caroline, any other thoughts on round three?

 

[00:18:55.420] – Caroline

Yes, I totally agree with that and so do your research. Right shows the insight into the program because schools definitely see as the season goes on. You see, as I said less motivated candidates have been rejected elsewhere and so we’re sort of working their way down the list and the applications become very generic and clearly they haven’t spent much time engaging with the school. So it’s important to really set yourself apart in that context and show that you have made the effort to get to know the school and you do understand what you will get out of that specific program and so tailoring your application in round three to that specific score is even more important really than in round one. Right. Whereas they assume in round one you’re applying in round one then you probably fairly motivated candidate but there’s a big question Mark about your motivation. Round three.

 

[00:19:53.310] – John

Yes, really true. Okay, there you have it all that we could tell you about round three. That mysterious and often scary round that some people dare to apply and we’re telling you if you are a domestic candidate, a woman or a diverse candidate, go for it. This is an unusual and unique time given the double digits decline at many schools and domestic applicants and the race for gender parity in how diversity and inclusion has become a very high priority for many schools. Thanks for listening. This is John Byrne with Poets and Quants. Of course, you’ve been listening to Business Casual our weekly podcast.

 

Business School News | General | P&Q Podcast "Business Casual"
Why This Year’s Round 3 Deadlines Are Different
Maria |
March 8, 2022

Video transcript, for you skimmers out there: 

I love the fact that they. Report on this metric, right? The salary percentage increase, I think is an incredibly valuable metric because there are so many business schools out there that are great for so many people. And at the end of the day, these programs are in fact able to do what a lot of business school applicants are hoping for.

They are in fact able to provide a real change in the trajectory of someone’s career. They are, in fact, able to help people leapfrog. Into a higher career stratum than they would’ve otherwise been able to be in. So from that perspective, I love the fact that the FT reports on the salary percentage increase.

So valuable. I think it helps, when sometimes I talk to people at the beginning of the business school journey, I will frequently hear something like, well, it’s M seven or bust, you know, it’s Harvard, Stanford, Wharton, or bust.

And I’m often like, look, slow your roll, man. There are so many programs out there that are going to get you. They might not be the first ones that you think [00:01:00] of, but wow, does that even matter? I mean, whew. Look at some of these numbers. $170,000. That is nothing to sneeze at, especially if it’s one and a half times more than what you were making before business school.

I mean, wow. , That is life changing. , And these schools can really change people’s lives. And I think it’s important to have this metric available because I think it helps open people’s eyes. To, To be a little bit more open-minded. , And I think that’s wonderful.

Where my little quibble is. Is that I believe this is an important metric to report upon. However, I do not believe that it is a metric that should have significant amount of weight in the rankings because if we think about what is the purpose of a ranking, it is meant to be some sort of a representation of relative quality.

Now rankings. The entire concept of them is flawed the entire, for me, the entire concept of an ordinal ranking is ridiculous. Like school versus two versus four, versus seven versus six . You know, like, there, there’s sort of [00:02:00] these tiny miniature marginal differences. I think that school rankings should instead be in buckets.

Like, here is the top bucket, and then here is the also very good, but just underneath the top bucket, the next bucket. Um, but no one, no one listens to me. Uh, but so anyway, to the extent that a ranking. Is intended to be some sort of a measure of a program’s quality. I don’t think that this metric is one that should be included in the weighting.

Look, again, . Life-changing levels of improvements in salary. But when I look at, okay, so these were the top five programs by the salary percentage increase, but now when I look at it by the weighted salary, right, the top five US programs, by weighted salary, it’s not entirely accurate to say that.

Well, these programs, you start with people who have lower incoming salaries and they end up in the same place as the other programs. The numbers do not [00:03:00] really, , the numbers would tell a slightly different story. So if you look at the weighted salary a few years out for the top five programs by salary,

we’re talking about a $70,000 a year difference, roughly 240 a year versus 170 a year. That’s about a 40% difference, which I don’t think is a small, you know, if we were talking 5%, even 10%, I’d be like, yeah, 10%, that’s nothing. It’s, you know, nothing but 40% I do think is a pretty, I think it’s a pretty significant difference, uh, that is worth noting.

And so. Your point about like, well, they were letting in the people who were already on a, you know, if you were making, let’s see if we can, if we figure out, okay, so if we take this, these numbers, then we can sort of back into what’s an implied pre MBA salary, you know, that would indicate maybe something in the mid sixties before MBA versus, you know, one 10 something, [00:04:00] 1, 1 10, 1 15, for these other programs.

I get your argument. Your argument is like, look, these people were already clearly high achievers prior to business school, and so, mm-hmm. Is it not true then that the business school, like they would’ve continued to be high achievers And in fact, this is true, some of the most successful, financially successful people I know skipped business school altogether and they didn’t need it.

, However, I think GMAC often does, polls or surveys of MBA graduates, and I think the vast majority of them, at a minimum say that they’re glad that they went to business school, that they do feel that it was worth, their time. So. How much of this is,, nature versus nurture.

We, we will never know. , But I would gently push back on the fact that I, because these numbers essentially to the extent that they’re lower than say these numbers, it effectively penalizes thes e schools in this ranking. And for that reason, I don’t think that it should be part of the ranking because you’re penalizing a school for letting in more successful people.

But there’s a benefit. [00:05:00] To attending. Like, first of all, if you are a more successful person, think of the opportunity cost that you’re giving up. So the fact that these schools are able to lure away people to give up two years of their salary, in order to go to business school in the first place, I think is a pretty good indicator of the desirability or the perceived desirability of those programs.

Also, I do think that there is merit to thinking about like, who are my peers going to be in a business school? and. If a school is attracting people who were more successful prior to business school, I actually think that that is an indicator of the quality of the school, not only because it shows the people that are willing to give up those two years of salary, but also think about who the peer group is once someone is in the school.

Right? That means that if you are attending one of these schools. This percentage isn’t as high, but you’re surrounded by people who, prior to business school, were already achieving on a different level. And also after they graduate, they continue to achieve on a different level. True. The slope is not as sharp.

Right. But the.

[00:06:00] Result is a larger number. So I think that this implies that perhaps at the school itself, you might be surrounded by people who are driven. some people might say more competitive, which might not be everyone’s cup of tea, but people who are more driven and also after they graduate, they continue to be driven.

And so I think that also implies something pretty powerful about the ultimate benefit of the network because business school isn’t just the two years you go there and it’s not just that first job you get out of school or that third job you have five years out of school.

it’s also who’s your network gonna be and, and who are you gonna call 10, 15, 20 years after graduation? To invest in your company or to partner with your company or to start a company with. so I do think that there is value to attending a school and to have your peers during school and after school be people who were, for lack of a better term, high performers.

[00:07:00] I don’t think that this should be punished because I do think that this does yield a better business school. Experience and a better result in the long term. And so my quibble, again, I love this metric. I think this is an amazing metric to provide, but my quibble is that this should not be given honestly, any weight at all, and certainly not the high level of weight that it’s given, because again, you’re punishing the schools that, you know, you’re basically indicating that I, what I would say is an indication of quality.

An indirect indication of quality, but an indication of quality all the same. You’re basically punishing the schools that have sort of higher quality, quote unquote, coming in. And, and that to me is. Counterintuitive and kind of wrong. And so that’s why I continue to think that this should not be, uh, reported upon.

Absolutely. Tell us. It’s important. I think it’s great to know. I love using this information, but I don’t think it should be used in terms of like, let’s figure out which programs are the , [00:08:00] quote unquote highest quality programs. But what do you think? What did I miss? let me know. Thanks.

Maria

New around here? I’m an HBS graduate and a proud member (and former Board Member) of AIGAC. I considered opening a high-end boutique admissions consulting firm, but I wanted to make high-quality admissions advice accessible to all, so I “scaled myself” by creating ApplicantLab. ApplicantLab provides the SAME advice as high-end consultants at a much more affordable price. Read our rave reviews on GMATClub, and check out our free trial (no credit card required) today!