As the summer season kicks off, MBA hopefuls start eyeing those crucial early application dates. In this episode of “Business Casual,” Pola Lem, alongside Maria Wich-Vila and Caroline Diarte Edwards, dive into the nuances of application timelines and the all-important ‘career vision’ for aspiring business leaders. Amid playful chatter about unpredictable weather and barbecue mishaps, they bring clarity to what can often feel like a complex and overwhelming process.
The discussion highlights that European business schools typically have a more staggered application schedule compared to their U.S. counterparts. Caroline explains that this flexibility can be advantageous, offering multiple opportunities for applicants to fit their submissions into their schedules. However, she advises that applying early generally provides an edge in both regions, especially for candidates with more common profiles, ensuring enough time for post-acceptance logistics.
Delving into ‘career vision,’ the trio makes it clear this isn’t just about long-term dreams but crafting a clear, strategic narrative that aligns past experiences with future aspirations. Both Maria and Caroline stress the importance of intertwining personal passion with professional goals, making a compelling case for how applicants can stand out in a crowded field. For anyone preparing to embark on their MBA journey, this episode is packed with essential insights that demystify significant aspects of the application process.
Episode Transcript
Note: This transcript was generated by AI and may contain minor inaccuracies.
[00:00:02] – Pola
Hello everyone, I’m Pola Lem with Poets and Quants, and welcome to our weekly podcast, Business Casual. So I’m joined today by my co-hosts Maria Wikvila and Caroline Diarte Edwards, and Maria is the founder of ApplicantLab. Caroline, meanwhile, was head of admissions at INSEAD and is co-founder of Fortuna Admissions. So today we’ve been talking a bit about the weather, kind of in, in British fashion, but in London, I think it’s fair to say we’re truly in summer right now. It’s a glorious day outside, 30 degrees Celsius, so that’s 85 degrees Fahrenheit. And I have a confession to make, which is my partner and I had a total barbecue fail. This weekend. It was totally disorganized, way too hot. There was smoke everywhere, a small child running around. We’re trying to keep the house door closed to keep the cool in, and rushing around. There’s burnt food. I mean, it was definitely the worst barbecue I’ve ever done. It was very sad. But I was just thinking, you guys both live in California, so I bet you’ve already done plenty of barbecuing this year. Caroline, are you— have you— do you just do barbecues all the time in California?
[00:01:25] – Caroline
Well, um, we do occasionally, although it’s been pouring with rain and it’s freezing cold here right now, so I think I’ve got the, the English weather in Northern California. How about you, Maria?
[00:01:36] – Maria
Yeah, I, I think that we sent you our California weather this week as a gift, uh, because it is overcast today.
[00:01:43] – Pola
June—
[00:01:44] – Maria
we are approaching June Gloom here in Los Angeles a week early. Um, so congratulations, Polo. We, we hope you enjoy the sunny weather that we— Thank you.
[00:01:54] – Pola
No, I, I enjoyed it in as far as it didn’t go up to like 93 degrees. And at that point I thought, I’ve been waiting for this all year, but actually this is way too hot for me. No, thank you. So if I had an air conditioner, things might be different. Um, but, uh, in any case, Today we will be talking about career vision, but first, Poets&Quants has published a list of business school application deadlines, which is quite timely given we’re headed into the summer, and I’ve got some questions for you both on that. So I should say first that what strikes me is there’s a really wide variety of how long you wait for a decision at the various schools. So with the US schools, Columbia is kind of the outlier. It starts accepting admissions by mid-August versus you’ve got a lot of US schools that accept applications starting from September, October, and then get back to you by December. But in Europe, we’ve got a bunch of schools that start even earlier. So HEC Paris, ESMT Berlin, IMD, INSEAD Rotterdam. All of those have intakes— or sorry, not intakes, application. They, they start their application period in June, July, um, although I should say some of them have multiple application periods, and that’s for a January start date.
[00:03:25] – Pola
So Caroline, does Europe generally start that admissions process earlier than the US, and also have those timelines changed much or moved forward in recent years?
[00:03:40] – Caroline
Well, I think what you’ll find is that the European schools typically have more deadlines than the US schools. So most of the US schools have 3 deadlines. HBS only has 2 deadlines for the full-time MBA, unless you’re a 2+2 applicant and you can apply in the spring. But the European schools have more deadlines, so it’s, it ends up being spread out over a longer period. And that’s great for applicants because it gives you more flexibility about when to apply. So you can apply very, very early, or you can apply later than you might for a US program. So it just gives candidates a lot more flexibility about when they can apply.
[00:04:20] – Pola
And Caroline, if you’re— is there just a follow-up question? If you’re applying early in one of those earlier cycles, Does that give you a leg up in the way that applying early action or early decision would, uh, for a US school?
[00:04:36] – Caroline
It depends on the school. Um, I would say that for the top US schools, it’s definitely advisable to target round 1 or round 2 rather than round 3, especially if you have a somewhat common profile. For the international schools, They try to keep the level of competition pretty equal across rounds. But having said that, some of the deadlines are very late. So I would still encourage candidates to apply earlier if they can, because some of the deadlines mean that you would just be getting a decision a matter of a month or two before the program starts. And that gives you very little time to then organize logistics, housing, move, leave your employer, and so on. And it’s also quite possible that at that stage, stage, the program is pretty much full. So with the schools where they have multiple deadlines, they might have 6 deadlines. I would say apply in the first 1 to, you know, up to 1 to 5, and then the last deadline you might be pushing it in terms that the program might be filling up, and then you’re giving yourself much less time to get yourself organized.
[00:05:50] – Pola
Maria, how much strategy is there around timelines on the part of admissions teams? And Caroline, if you want to pitch in with one later, please do. So, um, so specifically, you know, in the case of Columbia in the US, as that’s an early one, if you get in there ahead of other schools and give applicants a decision, are they going to be more likely to accept your offer?
[00:06:13] – Maria
Well, so I think there’s a, there’s a couple of, of differences. I think specifically that Columbia rolling admission is just for a spe— a special program that Columbia has called the J-Term program, which starts in January. Um, and so it’s you know, it’s understandable that they need to give people an answer really quickly, uh, because if you’re going to move to New York, if you find out in, say, September or October that you need to move to New York to start your classes in January, it’s understandable why they don’t have that sort of more standard, um, you know, the, the delays and the multiple month of multiple months of waiting to get the decision. But for their standard, uh, August start at Columbia, they do follow the more standard round 1, round 2, uh, etc. So for the rolling deadlines, like, yes, you are going to find out earlier from Columbia than you from any other school, but that’s because you’d be starting classes about 8 months earlier. Um, and you’re only— it’s such a unique program that I— very few people, I think, if you’re truly interested in Columbia J-Term, you’re probably not really applying to other schools, or you’re applying there first as your first choice, and then you’ll apply to other schools later if J-Term doesn’t work out.
[00:07:18] – Maria
Um, so from that angle, uh, that specific program, I just think Columbia, it’s more of like a logistical thing to get to get people into New York pretty quickly. But in terms of strategy otherwise, yes, I do think that there is definitely, in terms of like the notification strategy, you know, some schools might release their decisions a week, you know, before or after other schools. And I do think that there might be an element of let’s get them excited about getting into our school. So then that way, hopefully, if they get good news also from a competitor school, maybe if we sort of have that, we planted the flag on that territory first and we can claim it for ourselves, you know, were more likely to, to have warm fuzzy feelings from the, from the applicant. Um, in that case, I also think that there’s a strategy though for applicants to think about, um, not just in terms of, okay, who’s going to be my competition within a certain round, but also I think a lot of things that people sometimes often don’t think about is they think, well, I’ll apply to the earlier schools in round 1, or the sort of the easier schools to get into, I should say.
[00:08:17] – Maria
Sorry, I misspoke. Uh, the easier schools in round 1, and then I’ll get in, and then I’ll then, I’ll see what happens and I’ll apply in round 2. But the problem is that there are deposit deadlines. Usually you’re gonna have to pay a rather substantial deposit in some cases if you get accepted to an earlier school before you find out the decision from the later school. So I often find myself telling people like, unfortunately, like because of the way how you did things, if you wanna keep that optionality open for that other program, you are gonna have to pay that deposit, unfortunately. So if you are thinking about, trying to optimize this game and splitting your applications across different rounds, actually maybe even take a peek at what the deposit amount is for the schools that you’re applying to, because some schools actually have fairly substantial deposits and others it’s a couple thousand dollars. But other schools, um, some schools have actually rather large deposits. So just make sure that you’re aware of the fact that you might have to shell out some money to hold that spot from an earlier round.
[00:09:13] – Pola
And I’m guessing a lot of those are non-refundable from what you’re saying. Ouch. Yeah, so I don’t know if you’ve got any kind of admissions strategy behind this, having been behind the scenes at INSEAD, Caroline.
[00:09:30] – Caroline
Well, I mean, one thing I think is notable is that you do see, at least with the US schools, that you tend to get the top schools who have the earlier deadlines. So those are typically early September, and then there are other schools that follow later in the month and early October. And I think That’s because the top schools are getting the, the first batch of candidates. So there is some sequencing even within a given round, right? And the other schools are aware that candidates are probably working on HBS or Wharton or Stanford first, and they are giving that their attention initially. So other schools time their deadlines to be a couple of weeks or 3 weeks after that deadline because they’re hoping that candidates will, once they have submitted their applications for those schools, then they will finish up their applications for, for, um, a, a couple of other schools and they’ll still have time to do that. So they are sort of staggering it somewhat to give candidates time to apply to a batch of schools in that first round.
[00:10:41] – Pola
Hmm. And Maria, you’ve touched on this already, but if I’m an applicant, say, how can I be strategic about pacing myself? Within these deadlines.
[00:10:52] – Maria
Yeah, I mean, Caroline just brought up a really great point. I think, you know, one of the, one of the applications that I admire the most is the MIT application for a number of reasons, but one of the many reasons I admire Sloan is that their deadline is always a couple of weeks after everyone else. And so you sprint to the finish, and if multiple schools have a deadline on the same day or within a day or two of each other, it’s human nature, right? You think you’re going to apply to 4 of them, but then you get to the finish line and you have no more gas left in the tank and you’re just like, oh, you know what, forget it, I’m just not even gonna— you know, I’m gonna forget that one, I’m gonna prioritize these other schools and forget the other ones. With Sloan, what’s so smart about them is that because they have that later deadline, you can sort of take a weekend off, regenerate your energy, and then see if you’ve got it in you to, to submit, um, within that round. Now, if your question is round 1 versus round 2, it really does— I think, you know, it behooves you to ask yourself, when is my application going to be the absolute strongest?
[00:11:47] – Maria
So sometimes people, they might procrastinate or they might underestimate underestimate how difficult the GMAT or the GRE are. They might take it, they might say, oh, the deadline is September 4th, so I’m going to take the GMAT on September 2nd, and then they take it and they don’t do as well as they were hoping. Um, I would rather have you then wait until round 2, for example, if I don’t want your— if your score is going to be so low that maybe your application isn’t taken as seriously as it would otherwise be, you might want to consider holding off to a later deadline. I also think that if you are in one of the more competitive applicant pools, and, and I think Caroline also touched on this, if you’re in one like the, the pools of people who have known since age 7 that they’re applying to Stanford, um, and they’ve been preparing this app. Like, sometimes people have been mentally preparing their applications for years before they actually hit submit. And so those folks, you know, from the very competitive profiles, usually management consulting, finance, private equity, etc., and then also the engineers frequently, although slightly less frequently, but those sort of really competitive business, uh, you know, business-focused pre-MBA paths, those folks usually— they— some of them submit on the day the application opens in July.
[00:12:55] – Maria
And so if you know that all of your competitors from your bucket are applying in that same round, it’s probably in your best interest to also try to throw in your lot at the same time, just so that you get in front of the applications— the admissions committee a little bit sooner.
[00:13:11] – Pola
Yeah. Anything final to add on, uh, Strategic admissions timing before we move on to career visions, Caroline?
[00:13:20] – Caroline
Yeah, I would just say it’s important to really map out your specific deadlines, and as Maria said, it can get very hectic. There’s just a lot to do with the different essays and then the application forms, which also often have like mini essays hidden within the application forms, so that can be quite time-consuming. So, definitely plan early with the different deadlines that you’re working towards and give yourself plenty of buffer time. Too often it happens that candidates are sort of scrambling at the last minute, and it can be very stressful, right, if you’re trying to submit something on the last day. And certainly when I was working at INSEAD, you know, we’d get panicked messages from candidates day after the deadline that, you know, their internet had crashed and they hadn’t been able to submit their application, and it was extremely messy and stressful for them. So just plan on submitting at least 2 or 3 days ahead if you can.
[00:14:25] – Pola
Oof. Yeah, I think good advice for any sort of important submission of documents. I’m thinking of US immigration now, but let’s not go into that. So, On crafting a career vision, we actually had a story the other week from Caroline’s colleague Heidi at Fortuna Admissions, and I’ll read a, a quick passage before we get into it. So she writes, a career vision isn’t a rehearsed answer to where do you see yourself in 10 years. It’s a clear, honest account of where you’ve been, what you’ve learned, the specific path you intend to take, and one that ties your entire application together into a coherent story. So I have to say, I was relieved to hear that because I absolutely hate that 10-year question. And I think, yeah, I’ve been asked this before and I’m a lot maybe less organized in my career vision than an MBA student. But I think unless you’re super fixed on one destination that you’ve always wanted, you know, whether that be vice president at JPMorgan or, you know, head of the New York Times, like, how can you really know what the next 10 years will bring? So with that in mind, uh, Maria, how can a student take a stab at an ambitious goal or a, you know, a longer-term vision of some kind if they don’t necessarily have a super clear picture in their head of what that is, right?
[00:15:58] – Maria
So I think there are a number of reasons why schools ask for this, and I think it’s okay for you to not actually know what’s going to— what’s going what’s going to happen in the next 2, 5, 10 years of your life. Uh, none of us do, so no one’s going to hold you to it. I have this, this image in a webinar that I give of like Forrest Gump running and people chasing him. Like, no one’s gonna chase after you, uh, after you graduate and be like, look, this is what you wrote in your essay and now you’re doing something different, and give us the diploma back. Um, so don’t worry and think that this is set in stone and that you’re never going to be able to deviate from it. Uh, there are a number of reasons why this is a useful exercise, um, and Heidi’s article goes into it and and I’d love to hear Caroline’s, uh, views on this as well. But one of the reasons is showing them that you have been thoughtful about why you’re even applying to an MBA in the first place, and that once you get there, you’re going to leverage the resources in a way that makes sense, um, understanding that plans might change, but at least you’re capable of making a plan that is logical, uh, and that will capitalize on your time at school, uh, in part so that when you get to school, you hit the ground running, but also I think sometimes when people actually get the tuition bill and they start to balk at it, uh, and then it’s, it’s a good exercise to remind them like, well, think back to why you’re doing this in the first place.
[00:17:16] – Maria
Think of what you’re going to be getting. Uh, think about how this is going to help you reach your goals. And so it’s also beneficial from, from that perspective too, of convincing yourself that this investment is worth it.
[00:17:26] – Pola
Hmm, yeah, good to keep that in mind when the bills start arriving. Yeah, Caroline, if you’re a student What’s the kind of starting point for writing a career vision? How would you approach brainstorming and then going on to write that?
[00:17:41] – Caroline
Yeah, I would definitely do the brainstorming part before you even start to write a career vision essay. So, I would start by asking yourself some fundamental questions about what kind of impact you want to have in the future. What are the values that drive you? What kind of culture do you thrive in? And ask yourself some more of these sort of underlying questions that will then help to guide you to think about, okay, actually, what role am I suited to? And which sort of company do I want to work in? So, it’s good to do that sort of foundational brainstorming before you hone in on, okay, I want to work at McKinsey when I graduate and then launch an edtech startup 5 years later, right? So it’s that sort of deep introspection that helps to build a foundation. And that takes some time. It’s not something that you can sort of cook up in half an hour, 2 weeks before the application deadline. So it’s definitely worth spending some time on that deep reflection well ahead of the deadline because You will suddenly have a flash of inspiration when you’re out walking in the forest one weekend or when you’re chatting with friends.
[00:19:03] – Caroline
So, it’s something that really percolates. So, start asking yourself the questions, but don’t put pressure on yourself to answer all of the questions straight away. All right. So, I think it’s just, first of all, figuring out the questions that you need to ask yourself and then giving yourself the time to work through that process. And then as you begin to focus in on some potential career paths or some potential companies that you’re interested in, then you need to do your research. So, I encourage candidates to reach out to people who are actually doing the jobs that you’re interested in and having some informational interviews with them. You might better find people through your network or through the network of your network, you know, reaching out to people who friends or acquaintances or colleagues know, and ask them if they’d be willing to give you 5, 10 minutes and have a chat with them about what it is they do, how they got there, what they love about their job, what they don’t like so much about it, so that you really get a sense for the nitty-gritty of what that job requires and what the day-to-day reality is like.
[00:20:11] – Caroline
Because it can sound very glamorous to go and work for McKinsey or Bain or BCG when you graduate. The reality can be pretty exhausting. It often comes with, you know, an intensive travel schedule. It’s incredible exposure. It’s a great learning experience, but it’s not for everybody. So, it’s critical to understand the day-to-day reality of the types of jobs that you are thinking about. So, do that research and and get that input from other people so that you’re not just sort of reflecting about it in isolation, but you’re actually out there, you’re networking with people, you’re getting input, you’re building your understanding. And who knows, some of those people that you speak with could actually be great contacts for you in the future in any case. So it’s all good research. And there’s something else to keep in mind is that often in the application, you will have very limited word count to explain your career vision. So, that can lull you into false sense of security that, “Okay, I just need to say one thing, one sentence about what I’m going to do when I graduate, and then I’ll say a couple of other things about what I’d like to do in the longer term.” But at some point, you’re going to be facing an interviewer, and they will, they may well challenge you on your career goals and want to understand if you have taken the time to understand that path and what it takes to get there, how you’re going to land that job, why you’re suited to it, why you’ve chosen that specific firm rather than another.
[00:21:56] – Caroline
And so you need to have done that foundational research in your application process because sometimes that’s when people unravel, and they haven’t done that legwork ahead of time that enables them to really defend their vision at the interview stage.
[00:22:14] – Pola
Yeah, I mean, I really love that idea of going and interviewing people, not just because I do it every day, but that need to, I think I often feel the need to dig for more detail. I think in a way, if you’re— well, you have a much clearer idea of what you’re signing up for, but also potentially that closes some doors. And as you say, you discover, well, maybe, you know, that grueling schedule at McKinsey and working till 10 PM every day isn’t— and traveling all the time isn’t for me. But so, Maria, one other sort of tip that Heidi mentions in the story is doing a skills gap analysis so you can say how the specific program meets your needs. How do you go about doing that? Is there some sort of survey or template that, uh, can help with that?
[00:23:09] – Maria
Well, I think first of all, if you’ve done, uh, the interviewing that Caroline has mentioned, it’ll probably become pretty apparent pretty quickly when you hear about what someone’s day-to-day is and you think to yourself, oh, I actually have never negotiated anything. Maybe negotiations is something I need experience in. Oh, I’ve never formally been in charge of a team before. Maybe managerial experience or or an education around how to manage teams is something I need. So I think that that gap’s— now that gap analysis will make itself pretty clear to you even if you don’t speak to anyone, because I know sometimes it can be hard to get folks on the phone. But even if you just look at their biographies on the company website, um, or you look up their LinkedIn, right, that can also be a beneficial way to passively get this information. Look at what jobs they had and how they moved up the ladder, and you can try to infer from that what are some of the skills that I am going to need. So I think a lot of people, you know, there are a couple different reasons people get an MBA.
[00:24:02] – Maria
One is to go higher or deeper into a field of expertise they already have. Another is to broaden. So let’s say they’re already a finance executive but they want to become more of a general manager. So yeah, they want to learn a little bit more about finance, but really they’re in it for the general management. And then there are some folks who are there to pivot, um, and so that gap analysis is going to depend heavily upon what that goal for you is. Obviously, if you’re not looking to pivot, then you don’t need to say, well, I also need this wide-ranging education. Um, and so it’s— I think it’s going to be very personal for each, each individual, but that’s what helps create the rationale for why you need the MBA in the first place, as opposed to just continuing to get these lessons on the job.
[00:24:47] – Pola
And Caroline, obviously applicants are thinking deeply about how a program meets their specific needs, but as we’ve already mentioned, uh, realistically you’re applying to more than one program as an applicant. So how do you cleverly repurpose in a, in a genuine way what you’ve written for more than one application?
[00:25:11] – Caroline
Yeah, so probably you will have the same career vision across applications. In most cases, that’s true for candidates, but then you may well need to articulate why you’re applying to that specific program, and that’s where you really need to tailor it. So it comes down to that skills gap analysis that Marie was talking about, and then figuring out, okay, so I need to improve my team management skills and understanding of organizational behavior. So you can have a look at what the school offers for those classes, or it may be that you want, in the longer term, you have entrepreneurial ambitions, so you can have a look at the core courses or the electives or the clubs that the, that the school offers that supports entrepreneurship. So a lot of these key areas, all of the schools are going to have a mix of core courses, electives, clubs, activities that support different career interests. So it’s a case of digging into the school curriculum, understanding the student activities that relate to specific career interests. And that can help you tailor your application. It’s also helpful to talk to students who have similar career goals to you.
[00:26:30] – Caroline
So if you’re looking to, say, make a switch into investment banking, then try to connect with some students who are in the Finance Club, who are also trying to make that career switch, and talk to them about which courses they would recommend. What they’ve done as part of the finance club that has helped them prepare for their path into investment banking. So that can be really useful to get some sort of insider tips on how to make the most of a specific MBA program for your career goals.
[00:27:01] – Pola
Well, I think I’ll hold my questions there on the career vision, but before we go, I want to return to the question of the barbecue. So I am—
[00:27:15] – Maria
are you traumatized? Is that like, is that barbecue experience like, you know, you’re like, you’re reliving it over and over, you’re waking up screaming in the night, all I can think about is barbecue, barbecue all the time, even in the podcast?
[00:27:28] – Pola
Well, actually, you know what, this is, this is my sort of positive thinking. I’m thinking about my favorite barbecue dish and how I would do things better next time. So Mine, I think, is, if I’m to choose one, is grilled corn on the cob, where it’s all nice and kind of charred and brownish, and then a little bit of butter, some salt, a slice of lime on there. So I’m gonna go with, with that. Maria, what is your favorite barbecue dish?
[00:28:04] – Maria
Matt, I am, I am not really a huge barbecue fan, but actually there’s a Mexican restaurant in my neighborhood that makes corn exactly the way you described, with a little bit of cotija cheese on top some lime and it is amazing. So I’m going to steal your answer and also it’s almost lunchtime. I’m getting— you’re making me hungry.
[00:28:26] – Pola
Caroline, favorite barbecue dish?
[00:28:29] – Caroline
Yeah, so I’m not sure, but something I’ve been thinking about, I want to try barbecuing. So my kids are big fans of Indian food because we lived in India for a few years. And when my daughter Adriana turned 18 last week, what she wanted for dinner on her birthday was butter chicken. So, I made this butter chicken. I think it had like 30 different things on the list of ingredients. So, it took a little while, but the first step was marinating the chicken with some yogurt and lemon and some spices. And then I, um, I roasted the chicken before cooking it with a sauce. And actually that marinated roasted chicken was so good by itself that I want to just try and doing that marinade with the chicken and then barbecuing it this summer. So that’s my plan for a barbecue dish in the next week or two.
[00:29:18] – Pola
Definitely, yes, please send me that recipe. Well, with that, I’m gonna let, uh, Maria and Caroline get to lunch and I’m gonna go home for some dinner. But please do come back next week. And if you liked our discussion today, check out Poets and Quants com. Thank you very much to my co-hosts Maria and Caroline, and thank you everyone for listening.
