In this engaging episode of the “Business Casual” podcast from Poets & Quants, hosts John Byrne, Maria Wich-Vila, and Caroline Diarte Edwards delve into the art of differentiating oneself in MBA applications beyond the heavyweights of GPA and standardized test scores. As MBA hopefuls eye coveted spots at elite schools, they often worry about lacking experience with renowned firms like McKinsey or Goldman Sachs. However, the hosts highlight that business schools are interested in more than just big names on a resume.

Caroline emphasizes that schools look deeply into applicants’ professional experiences, seeking to understand their impact, initiative, and leadership potential. The discussion reveals that it’s not merely about working for top companies; instead, it’s crucial to illustrate how responsibilities have evolved, showcase leadership qualities, and demonstrate a capacity for future impact. Caroline underscores that leadership is multifaceted—comprising collaboration, persuasiveness, and initiative—even for those without formal managerial roles.

John and Maria further explore the importance of extracurricular activities in showcasing leadership. They stress that merely participating is not enough; aspirants should strive to take initiative, lead projects, or even establish new organizations. This episode’s insights guide MBA applicants in crafting applications that highlight their unique leadership stories and personal initiatives, demonstrating their potential to make a significant post-MBA impact.

Episode Transcript

Note: This transcript was generated by AI and may contain minor inaccuracies.

[00:00:06] – John

Well, hello everyone. This is John Byrne with Poets & Clients. Welcome to business Casual, our weekly podcast with my co-host, Caroline DiArte Edwards and Maria Wickvilla. Maria, of course, is the founder of Application Lab, and Caroline is a former head of admissions at NCI and a co founder of Fortuna Admissions, the MBA admissions consulting firm. We want to talk about How you differentiate yourself in an application to a highly selective MBA program beyond the obvious. The obvious being your GPA, which does account for quite a bit of weight in consideration of your application and the standardized test score. In other words, how do you get out of the bunch? How do you get out of the pile? And how can you do it with extracurriculars and perhaps also, of course, your work experience? A lot of people worry, particularly those who apply to elite schools. And we had an episode on this that if your resume doesn’t have Goldman, McKinsey, Bain, BCG, Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Apple on it, you’re at a disadvantage. In fact, the elite schools do bring in a lot of people from those Feeder companies. On the other hand, they bring in a lot of people from places that we I haven’t even heard of.

[00:01:31] – John

How do you make a difference in an application, particularly through your extracurriculars? Caroline, what do you say?

[00:01:39] – Caroline

There’s lots of different elements that go into this. So first, if we talk about professional experience and how you can stand out there. We do speak to candidates who are concerned, as you say, John, they would love to go to a top school, but they haven’t worked at one of the so-called top firms, like McKinsey Bain BCG or Goldman or one of the top tech firms, and they’re concerned that perhaps they don’t have the right credentials, they don’t have the right company or the right job title on their resume. And of course, schools are actually looking at much more than just the bare facts and figures of your professional experience. So they do dig into the details, and that’s how candidates from a wide variety of backgrounds get into business school, because the schools really are taking the time to understand what you actually did, what impact you’ve had, what initiative you’ve taken, how you’ve shown leadership. So they do go far beyond the bare facts of who you worked for and perhaps what awards or promotions you’ve had. And they are looking to understand how your role has evolved over time, how you’ve taken your scope and your responsibilities have expanded over time.

[00:02:57] – Caroline

Have you stepped up to take on something that the other people didn’t do? Perhaps you’ve stood out from your peer group by taking on a project that somebody else or that your peers hadn’t done. How have you shown the ability to collaborate well with others? If you haven’t had formal leadership responsibilities, perhaps you have shown great initiative. And there are multiple elements that go into leadership. And I think sometimes candidates get hung up on they don’t have people reporting to them, or they don’t feel that they don’t have explicit leadership responsibilities. But there are many different elements that go into leadership. So I mentioned collaboration, persuasiveness, being able to influence other people, showing initiative. There are lots of different ways that you can show that you have the qualities that schools are looking for, because the schools are looking at your professional experience to really understand, are you someone who’s going who have a big impact in the future. And the perspective they take is your past performance is the best predictor of future success. So they will be looking at your track record and scrutinizing the details to see if you’re someone who has the qualities and the characteristics to really expand your responsibilities and have a bigger impact post MBA.

[00:04:23] – Caroline

So there’s a lot of different elements that go into that, and they’re looking to assess your impact in in many different ways. So definitely you have to take the opportunity to set that out in your resume, to set that out in your essays. You should coach your recommenders to get some of those elements across. But they will definitely be spending a lot of time digging into the details beyond just the job title and the employer that you’ve worked for?

[00:04:50] – John

Schools put a lot of emphasis on leadership. And what that seems to suggest to me is that in your work life and in your extracurricular life, It’s not enough just to have a job. It’s not enough just to volunteer. It’s important that you take on a leadership role in your organization, one kind or another, and in the extras that you have on your CV and in your application. It’s not enough to say you volunteer for Habitat for Humanity, for example. You need to lead a group, lead a project. You may need to create an organization that helps others. Is that your sense of it, Maria?

[00:05:30] – Maria

Yes, absolutely. I mean, if you have the intrinsic qualities of a leader, those are going to express themselves or you are going to make use of them in a variety of contexts, not only at your job. People who almost can’t help themselves but be leaders. I’m paraphrasing a former head of admissions at one of the top schools many years ago when she said, We’re looking for people who are leaders in spite of themselves. They almost can’t resist to jump in and say, Oh, my gosh, This fundraising drive that we’re doing for this nonprofit that I’m volunteering for is a mess. Let me jump in and reorganize it, or, Wow, this team is really going down the wrong path. All right, let me see if I can get everyone together and we can all start rowing in the same direction. Having those qualities, yes, absolutely. Extracurriculars can be a fantastic place to demonstrate those and to build on what Caroline was saying, I think the amount of impact that you can have. I know that we recently talked about how a lot of these large and fancy firms are primary feeders to the top business schools.

[00:06:33] – Maria

But the benefit of being at a smaller or less famous company is that then you really do have the opportunity to be a big fish in a small pond. You might not have some of the benefits of that platinum, that shiny name on the resume, but perhaps within that less shiny name, because it’s a smaller organization, because maybe the hierarchy isn’t as solidified, you are able to jump in to different projects or different different initiatives and raise your hand and make more of a difference.

[00:07:05] – John

A lot of people who come from startups or early-stage companies that very few people have heard of should be in a position to have to challenge themselves in a way that, frankly, people who come from these very well-known firms can’t because they typically fill fairly narrow roles like an analyst where you’re crunching data, you’re on a team, and that’s your job, period. Sometimes companies that may not add that glitter to your resume could give you experiences and challenges that are far more valuable to you than a McKinsey, a Bain, a BCG, a Microsoft, a Nappel, or Goldman Sachs, or J. P. Morgan. I’m sure you’ve had and have helped candidates in this situation, trying to differentiate them on the basis of what they’ve done as opposed to where they’ve worked. Right, Caroline?

[00:08:07] – Caroline

Yeah, for sure. When the school doesn’t know the company or the organization you’ve worked for, which will be the case for many candidates, especially if they’ve worked for a smaller organization, they will be looking to really dig into the quality of your work experience. And so it’s even more important in those cases to give very specific examples of what you’ve done and also to get your recommenders to back that up. Because, of course, the advantage of coming from a top firm like Google, or Goldman, or McKinsey, is that the schools understand that you’ve been through an incredibly rigorous recruitment process, that you’ve had a certain amount of exposure to projects and work experience that are typically at quite a high level, even for quite junior people, so that it gives them a way of understanding, essentially, the quality of your work experience. And it’s almost a shorthand for understanding where you’re coming from and what you might bring to the classroom. And if the school doesn’t know, doesn’t recognize your company or know much about it, then you have to explain a bit more to them, right? Because they don’t have any assumptions about what it is that you bring to the classroom, whereas they might have those assumptions for the candidates coming from those better known firms.

[00:09:34] – Caroline

So you have to work a bit harder to explain what your organization does, what the impact of that organization is, and then specifically what your role has been and how the results that you’ve been able to generate are noteworthy achievements. And so that has to come through in the different of your application. And then, of course, it’s very important that the recommenders back that up and really tell some great stories about how you are different from other people that they’ve worked with and how you stand out from your peer group.

[00:10:15] – John

Right. In last week’s podcast, when we spoke to Heidi Hillis, who worked on the analysis of the last two classes to be entered at Stanford MBA program and did a very detailed analysis analysis of who got in and what those students were like, we mentioned that a fair number of them had extras in the social impact area. I wonder if, Maria, you think that social impact may matter more in terms of extracurricular activity than, let’s say, a professional organization and your involvement in it, or an organization at work. It could be anything from a presentation or speech-giving organization at work that’s common to improve your skill at presenting. Maybe that’s less valuable to an admissions officer than the fact that you think beyond yourself and are really dedicated to giving back to others.

[00:11:21] – Maria

Yeah, that’s interesting because I think in my mind, these professional organizations within the workforce, whether they are a affinity groups, women at Goldman Sachs type of group, or whether it’s something like Toastmasters, I do consider those to be maybe not pure community service in the traditional sense. But in my mind, anything that you do that is above and beyond your normal job description, that is not something you’re being compensated for, I do think that that does show an interest in the community. If you just show up to the meetings, then it may be perhaps not so much. But if you say, Look, I am a woman Being a woman at Goldman Sachs has its challenges, and I’m making this up, and I’m going to organize a mentorship program to help other people like me, I do feel that that does demonstrate that level of altruism. I don’t necessarily think that it has to be I think you can demonstrate community engagement in ways that aren’t necessarily the traditional Red Cross, blood drive, habitat for humanity way. In fact, in some cases, some of these free MBA types of activities actually lend themselves directly to an on-campus volunteer activity.

[00:12:39] – Maria

For example, continuing with the previous example, if you then say in your Wharton essay number 2, I’ve led this woman’s group at my bank that I work for, and we are all supporting each other, blah, blah, blah. When I get to Wharton, I’m going to do the same at the Women in Business Group. I wouldn’t necessarily judge it more or less based on it having to be necessarily a cause, because I do think that you can demonstrate those personality traits in a variety of different ways. I would just say make it something that you’re really passionate about truly, because then you’ll be more motivated intrinsically to step up and make more of a difference than to put in that effort. I also think that passion will come across in an interview should you get asked about it.

[00:13:26] – John

Now, that latter part, I think, is crucial. In other words, I’m going to bring my passion to the school, and I intend to lead or help or organize a similar challenge at the school because it just shows that you’re willing to give up some time and invest in the school in a way that helps the school’s program and makes it better for others, which I think a lot of admissions directors really appreciate. Is that something, Caroline, that you’ve seen again and again in your application work?

[00:14:04] – Caroline

Yeah, that’s a big part of the extracurricular profile. Of course, schools are scrutinizing a number of things when they’re looking at extracurriculars, and there are a lot of different qualities that you can demonstrate through that extracurricular profile, for example, leadership, as we’ve mentioned. And that can be wonderful for bolstering your profile, especially if you haven’t had formal leadership responsibilities in your day job. But schools are also looking at extracurriculars, as you say, from the perspective of what student are you going to be? So as Maria said, if you’re someone who’s taking the initiative before you go to business school to organize a fundraiser or women in business club and you say that that’s something that you really love doing and you’re going to do that when you’re on campus, then that sounds much more credible than someone who just says randomly out of thin air, I would love to be the leader of the women at INSEAD Club, and they haven’t done anything that’s related to promoting women in the past. So it’s similar to your professional experience. Your past performance is the best predictor of your future impact. And So schools like to look at your extracurricular profile and extrapolate from that what student you’re going to be.

[00:15:21] – Caroline

Actually, you can proactively talk about that often in your application. I was working with the candidate earlier today who is passionate about mountaineering, and he was talking about how… And he’s done a lot in regards to mountaineering, and he was talking about how if he gets into INSEAD, he would love to lead an expedition to look at the impact of climate change on the glaciers in Switzerland. So that sounds much more realistic because he has a track record of doing that project. And of course, the MBA experience is about so much more than what goes on in the classroom. So So schools are working very hard to attract people who will be really active members of the community, because that’s a lot of what you will get out of the experience will be the networking events, the clubs, the social activities, the relationship building. That will be a huge part of your experience. And so they’re looking to bring together people with diverse interests who will then be able to enrich the life of the campus. And not just as students, of course, they’re thinking about, what are you going to be like as an alum an alumnus or an alumna at the school?

[00:16:31] – Caroline

Because schools love to have active alumni communities. That’s a massive asset for the schools. And so that’s also at the back of their minds when they’re looking at your extracurricular profile. Are you someone who’s going to get involved in the life of the school outside of the classroom, not just when you’re here on campus, but are you the type of person who’s going to put up your hand to lead the local alumni chapter in your home city or attend the regional networking events and so on, and perhaps even donate to the school, of course.

[00:17:08] – John

Right, exactly. Now, a number of years ago, we did a really interesting survey. We asked a whole host of MBA admission consultants to guess what % weight they would attach to each piece of an MBA application. Now, of course, it’s a guess. It’s an estimate. It’s going to vary from one candidate to another. There’s no doubt about that. But as a general rule, I wonder what you two think of these percentages that we published. Gmat score was 15. 8%, okay? Let’s go to an undergraduate GPA, 10. 3%. Now, let’s go to the applicant’s employer, 7. 3%, much less. Let’s go to extracurriculars, 5. 7%, much less. Then there’s everything from length of work experience to your recommenders. Incidentally, your recommenders, the feeling was that it’s around 7. 6%. While I’m being very precise here, obviously, it’s something that you really can’t be too precise over because it varies from one candidate to another. What do you make of that, Maria? Would you agree with roughly these percentages, or would you say, No, you just can’t even go there with it?

[00:18:37] – Maria

Well, okay. I think the proportions are directionally correct. I do believe that the standardized test score, for example, is more important than the undergraduate GPA, in large part because the standardized test score is standardized, hooray, and GPAs can vary so wildly from one university to another and from one course of study to another. I think I agree with the fact I think that the GMAT is considered, or presumably also the GRE, is considered to be much 50% more important than the GPA, 15. 8% versus 10. 3. I have this paradigm that I use, which is this hierarchy of needs. I borrowed the Maslow hierarchy of needs concept. I actually think that for those of you who aren’t familiar, the Maslow hierarchy of needs basically says that as humans, certain base needs have to be met before we can then start to think about loftier goals. We can’t think about, Oh, am I meeting my soul’s spiritual purpose if we are about to get run over by a truck? I apologize to the psychology major if I butchered that, but that’s pretty much my understanding. I believe that each of these different elements, weighing them is one thing, but then also looking at them in a certain order is another.

[00:19:50] – Maria

I think that the academic piece is maybe that first barrier. If I don’t think that you can handle the work, if I think that if I let you into my program, you’re going to be miserable or you’re going to fail out, or it’s just going to be a terrible academic experience, then it’s almost like, don’t even pass go, do not collect $200. I think the candidacy ends there. Then, assuming that I’m comfortable with their ability to handle the work, that’s when I start digging more into things like, how much of a leader do I think they are? What a contributor to my community do I think they are going to be? That’s where in things like the employer, the length of employment. For me, the type of the employer you work for and the length of employment and all of those different data points, at the end of the day, I think they get to an ultimate… Those are proxies that are ultimately trying to point towards this idea of impact and trying to prove within whatever context you’ve worked that you have had a certain type of impact. Again, that you’re the person who makes an impact.

[00:20:50] – Maria

I understand why people on message boards try to put together these quick and dirty like, What are my chances? I have six years of experience working in SAP. It’s like, Well, but that could mean that could be amazing. That could be an amazing six years, or it could be a very boring six years. That’s why these quick cursory glances are always not very useful. That’s also why the admissions processes themselves are so in-depth. That’s why Insayad has so many essay questions, and the videos, and the interviews, and everything. It’s precisely because it’s not easy to just distill it into some algebraic formula where you stick a bunch of variables in and then out spits a nice and tidy number. If that were the case, then no one in admissions, that would be a pretty easy job. It is not an easy job. It’s a very difficult job. Yeah, that’s my take on it.

[00:21:47] – John

The other thing we did that was fun with that story, incidentally, is we asked admission consultants to basically give their impression of the weight that business goals give their candidates on these different metrics. And then we asked them, But what would you do if you were in their shoes? And we found that admission consultants would put less weight on GMAT scores and more on interviews, essays, and recommendation letters. Caroline, you probably would agree with that, wouldn’t you?

[00:22:18] – Caroline

Well, I understand that. And when I first started my job at INSEAD, I was quite skeptical about the GMAT as students and alumni often are. But what I discovered is it is a pretty good predictor of people’s academic performance on the MBA program. And as Maria said, if you don’t have that, then that’s really… It’s a hygiene factor. If you don’t have the academic capability in a GMAT or a GRE as a good predictor for that, then you’re not going to flourish at the school. So whilst it can be frustrating, because sometimes we see candidates who are absolutely incredible, and they have wonderful career backgrounds, and they’ve had incredible impact, and amazing extracurriculars, and on and on and on, but they just can’t crack the damn GMAT.

[00:23:13] – Maria

It’s really frustrating, because you know that they will be…

[00:23:19] – Caroline

They would be great… They will be great future business professionals, so they could be great alumni, but they also need to be great students, unfortunately, and they are academic academic institutions. And sometimes we speak with students who are equally frustrated because they have great professional experience and they don’t fully grasp the fact that they’re applying to an academic institution and those academics are equally as important as your professional experience. I think it’s difficult to put specific numbers or weightings, but I agree with Maria that if you don’t have certain basic elements, the school is not going to spend a great deal of time on digging into your recommendations or on inviting you to interview if you don’t have some of the basic elements that they’re looking for.

[00:24:12] – John

Right. Which basically comes back to how we started the conversation. Beyond GPA and standardized test scores, how do you differentiate yourself? Clearly, what you’ve done at work, what you’ve accomplished at work, and what you do in your spare time that displays your passion and your interest in others, meaning you’re ambitious for others and not merely yourself, can be critical to your application. Incidentally, for listeners out there who are curious about the story that I mentioned, it’s called How Important is Each Part of your MBA Application? It’s a fun story, even though obviously the results are going to differ per candidate. And it was quite a popular story. It has over 130,000 views, incidentally. But check it out. It’s a lot of fun. For all of you out there making your journey to business school, good luck. This is John Byrne with Poets of Quants. Ets of Wands.